[Engineer,Magus]Keg,Aegis change v.2

[Tesq]

I am still waiting for people to prove that a keg Engi group can beat a balanced, coordinated WB/6-man. We don't nerf things just because they don't have an equivalent on the other realm.

this will never happen they are a force multipler, and the issues are not in small skirmish but linked to aoe target cap, vs keg stack

If this means: An Order WB + a group of Keg engies will beat a Destro WB.... well of course. This is a 24v24+.

Give me an example where, in a fight between EQUAL numbers, the WB with several Keg engies will beat the WB with several Choppas/Maras/SHs/BOs/DPS Doks/etc.

pretty easy
5-6 bw +1-2 engi

the tanks all SM/KObs

Order be can go full bw since of course the CD decrease is on a tank; let's **** spam all bw fire rain with 2x pull and 2x kegs which will heals all the ppl in the front line. Guess what a pull land you onto their position where their static aoe is stronger than your and your wb will hit their 9 nearest ppl that get heal every 3 sec for 700 (with out count crits).
700 is almost 1/10 of life for tanks and even MORE for a BW. In RVR you just need 1 ppl more on both side and every class will not be as a strong as an engi support at that point because be a force multipler as add another 300 heals not debuffable that can crit to 9 ppl passive active 100% of the time + all the rest matter more in bigger fight.

if 2 tick crit those are free 900 heals...... immune to cast increase, set back, heal debuff, silence KD(since you can refresh keg 5 sec before duration end even with a BG you cant remove the 100% update time,....k you can for 2sec........).
RvR mean more ppl, the keg stack is a realm issue. Multiple keg stack the bigger the scale-> off the balance due the interation between same number x same number due the offensive aoe being capped to 9 ppl.
This is not happen in scenarios, this is not happening in friendly 6vs 6 it's happening in 24vs 24+(you can even said it's a counter to the cannons dmg). While all of this is happening the engi can still pull/make dmg.
There is not even a trade off ; <at least magus have a 1 min CD for the burst he SHOULD provide (does not) and also need to get hit and take the aoe in the face. You place the keg and go away/stay back /place it behind(or from standing behind) the corner of any wall or etc in game.

[Thayli]

Spoiler:

Y But u can Make a normal wb say to def a keep and can place 9 kegs from 9 engis that are not in grp in the Front line of the organized wb and u have no Chance to counter that. So the wb got his heals guards buff and so on and the Front line As example lord room, Postern door, all doors get healed about 3 k extra to all his heals what they get and its not affectet by heal debuff and so on.. Sry But thats crazy they dont have something to do for IT Just place IT an go away.

The Heal is not directed to damaged Characters.
Meaning if there are 16 People in front of the Funnel.
8 Tanks, the Engie and 7 other Healers. No one says that the Keg heals the damaged Tanks in front. It heals everyone random, even Players at full health.
Meaning it would even the Healers who are standing behind you who dont need any health.

If this Tactic would be so powerfull of a keg Engie group healing a pug warband. Then why destro is still taking Keeps and break funnels and kill everyone in Lord Room?

Can someone confirm this? I thought Keg actually focused the heals on characters who effectively took damage. If this is not the case, I stand corrected.

I am still waiting for people to prove that a keg Engi group can beat a balanced, coordinated WB/6-man. We don't nerf things just because they don't have an equivalent on the other realm.

I am also waiting for people to post how to counter Engies in a Keep siege.

I think your first premise is a logical fallacy, to be honest. They can't and this is not the problem with Keg. The problem is that in fights that do not move such as keep sieges, stacking Kegs turn "fluff healing" into "not-so-fluff healing" yet there is no way to deal with this from the attack side. A player healer can be focused and killed. A keg can't.

If Keg does not get nerfed, it will not suddenly make Engineer unstoppable. It's not something hugely gamebreaking. I am just a firm believer that everything in the game needs meaningful counterplay. Keg has none at the moment, so that's what I'm asking.

As a sidenote, I'd like to point out that Mork's Breath (Morale 2) of Shaman is basically Keg but with slightly stronger numbers. Food for thought.

[Sigimund]

A player healer can be focused and killed. A keg can't

An engineer can be focused and killed too. Probably faster than a WP.

[Penril]

I think your first premise is a logical fallacy, to be honest. They can't and this is not the problem with Keg. The problem is that in fights that do not move such as keep sieges, stacking Kegs turn "fluff healing" into "not-so-fluff healing" yet there is no way to deal with this from the attack side. A player healer can be focused and killed. A keg can't.

If Keg does not get nerfed, it will not suddenly make Engineer unstoppable. It's not something hugely gamebreaking. I am just a firm believer that everything in the game needs meaningful counterplay. Keg has none at the moment, so that's what I'm asking.

As a sidenote, I'd like to point out that Mork's Breath (Morale 2) of Shaman is basically Keg but with slightly stronger numbers. Food for thought.

Well, as you can see, I also asked those who think Keg is fine, to post what is the counter to Keg engies in a keep defense.

My point is: "Nerf it, it is too OP" and "Nah, it is fine!!" are not valid arguments in this forum.

[GodlessCrom]

Counter to keg engies:

1: Focus the engies.

2: pull targets away from kegs with rift or terrible embrace.

3: punt targets away from kegs.

This is all assuming equal numbers/skill.

[Sigimund]

Don't forget heal debuffs.

[CegeePegee]

Counter to keg engies:

1: Focus the engies.

2: pull targets away from kegs with rift or terrible embrace.

3: punt targets away from kegs.

This is all assuming equal numbers/skill.

1.) need los to do this and in keep sieges a smart engineer will stay out of los

2.) how do you accomplish this if the targets are holed up in the lord room/3rd floor? is this something that can usually be done in this situation?

3.) not applicable in the already mentioned keep situation of stacking those kegs in the lord room...

[Glorian]

I think your first premise is a logical fallacy, to be honest. They can't and this is not the problem with Keg. The problem is that in fights that do not move such as keep sieges, stacking Kegs turn "fluff healing" into "not-so-fluff healing" yet there is no way to deal with this from the attack side. A player healer can be focused and killed. A keg can't.

If Keg does not get nerfed, it will not suddenly make Engineer unstoppable. It's not something hugely gamebreaking. I am just a firm believer that everything in the game needs meaningful counterplay. Keg has none at the moment, so that's what I'm asking.

As a sidenote, I'd like to point out that Mork's Breath (Morale 2) of Shaman is basically Keg but with slightly stronger numbers. Food for thought.

Well, as you can see, I also asked those who think Keg is fine, to post what is the counter to Keg engies in a keep defense.

My point is: "Nerf it, it is too OP" and "Nah, it is fine!!" are not valid arguments in this forum.

Like a Counter against a healer.
Kill the engi.

If an healer is killed and he has put an heal over time on a player. It is active after healer has died.
If you kill the engie his keg will for maximum be on 14 secs and healing the order around.

But I need to test this first if is even so or it stops healing. I have heard that Napalm stops doing damage after player death. Need to check how keg, mine, Rod works after player death.

@random heal targets:
I was under the assumption that targets for the AoE damage are also assigned random below the AoE cap. Need to make a test on this on next Thursday.

[GodlessCrom]

Had keg stacking in a lord room ever happened? And if so, has it ever proved the decisive factor in defending the keep?

This all feels somewhat like complaining about the sick aoe damage numbers a chosen can put out with his auras. Meaningless fluff numbers getting blown out of proportion.

And really, all this nonsense about kegs could also easily be applied to aoe healers in general: how do we take a lord room with a bunch of salv wps stacked on it, constantly casting group heals and always LOSing our dps and pulls? Must be impossible, man...

[Tesq]

Counter to keg engies:

1: Focus the engies.

2: pull targets away from kegs with rift or terrible embrace.

3: punt targets away from kegs.

This is all assuming equal numbers/skill.

1-cant, biger scale not small, no one gona focus you down due to range and **** lods of ppl in front line (again the problem is in bigger fight not small skirmish)

2-you will pull 9 target or they will pull your 9 ppl , in either case what force them to stay away and not move back onto keg again lol or what even force the engi to wait for the last moment to throw keg, this point is totally invalid, you can A) either pre pop the keg and re deploy it after 10 sec or either wait and do that after the pull decide.

3- and give free immunity because keg? you punt guard bot or you AOE def KB ppl not just to remove them for 5 sec from keg spot location. Where they can go back in very few times also granting them the chance to push you due to iimunities.