[Feedback] Engineer / Magus Changes

[Lektroluv]

What is this major buff you are speaking of?

Well maybe because i played a enginer since launch day, i remember enginers and magus at launch had not any "improvised upgrades buff"
In the patch 1.4 from november 2010 which gave them improvised upgrades buff for stay next to turret's-daemon's was a major buff on live server.

On that patch, they didn't only get improvised upgrades buff, theyr stats started to affect the turrets too (including weapon skill, ballistic skill and wounds stats) and made them win a 4% damage each 2 seconds up to a 20% once they were next to turret and demon.

Maybe you don't consider it a mayor buff, but for the people (me included, which played a enginer in those days, it was a really mayor one)

After all, i am not discussing with you about this thing anymore, i know i am right about this case and that is all i need to know, have fun and try to make a fair game, will be better for everyone.

[Kragg]

Let's stop compared squig and engineer they are so different . If you wanna talk about the stabbin path that deserve to be buffed I'd be agree to talk about it in another specific thread (stabbin path has to be buffed indeed)
For the rest stop saying engineer can have range /damage /tanky build / best healer THEY CANT DO IT ALL .
I agree for a range nerf for rifleman to 20% , why not ty it !
In the opinion , grenadier path should have a better burst than rifleman , why not swap the +15% crit tactic from tinkerer path to grenadier path (11 points too) instead of the grenade aoe radius increase tactic (first tactic in grenadier tree) but we have to find another tactic for tinkerer tree (11 points)

You are breaking down rifleman.

Healer? Not relevant. Why does Grenadier have to get the burst? Rifleman should have the burst. It is pretty much all they have.

[Grunbag]

I don't say engineer is a healer just said to lektroluv to compare engineer to healer / tank / squig .
Don't break rifleman , just said if everyone feeling that rifleman got unfair range we can try to reduce it to 20% and see if the path is still viable or not then it'd stop the discussion about the range buff .
I think rifleman are more safe than grenadier , so I was thinking about giving more crit to grenadier and see if the path et better ? Just an idea

[Morf]

Bare in mind when talking about engi's on mythic servers they were very harshly affected by the huge armor values the higher tier sets had, we shouldnt see as much of an issue with that here.
Seeing as we are all using the worse of the t4 sets(anni) engi and all physical damage will be as high as it will ever be as the amount a skill buffs/debuffs wont change with sov gear as we will all be running the same builds now as we will with sov and rr80 (a few extra mastery points wont make a difference).
This doesnt really affect magus, resist values wont increase by much at all the higher tier set as the main resist values come from player buffs.

The whole role of engi/magus is flawed at the core, a rdps who is meant to be stationary, this is why the other 4 rdps are more favoured you can cast on the move where you are going to be less at risk, this is also why engi/magus has more aoe CC then the other 4 rdps, in pug situations this doesnt make up for it as CC is thrown around willy-nilly but when noobs are out of the occasion it certainly does make up for it as you are able to protect yourself and your group very well and still be a threat with damage, less of a threat as sw/sh/bw/sorc but a threat none the less.

[Lektroluv]

I don't say engineer is a healer just said to lektroluv to compare engineer to healer / tank / squig .
Don't break rifleman , just said if everyone feeling that rifleman got unfair range we can try to reduce it to 20% and see if the path is still viable or not then it'd stop the discussion about the range buff .
I think rifleman are more safe than grenadier , so I was thinking about giving more crit to grenadier and see if the path et better ? Just an idea

I bet you seen scenarios where a enginer made 90k heals, sorry but that to me is a healer, doesn't matter is not a dedicated one with direct heals, but it is a healer.

Even with a 20% range buff, Snipe ability will be 180 feets, while all other range dps classes but magus use 100 feets abilities against 180 feets ones, i will keep saying enginer is overpowered, other classes like shadow warior for example, has been using 3 sec cast abilities with 100 feets range and survived.... making it back to 5 seconds ok, but 150 feets range is more than enough they don't need any buff in range field.

[Grunbag]

Why are you taking extreme stat / situation to justify your POV ? Sometimes order dominate long enough the sc , and the engineer can spam his keg so he has good heal stats : that doesn't make him a healer , it's just a hot that hit 9 target but it doesn't stand a teammate alive during destro focus .
If you remove all range buff to the rifleman you definitely breakdown the path for sure !
No one even knows if the 20% is good or if it would make the path useless again ? We don't have test a lower range yet , we don't know if dev and rifleman player would be agree to test 20% , it's just a suggestion and you already ask for a new nerf ? Stop theorycrafting and test thing before ask for more

Edit : you can't give less than 20% range bonus to rifleman cause if you remove all the range buff. The rifleman would only get 20% dmg boost compared to live but with a sniper cd nerf , a sniper higher In rifleman tree , a turret weaker (less wounds) , a turret that shot 4 times instead of 7 and less possibility to summon new turret unless we lose 4 stack instead of lose stack slowly . Remove the range buff would definitely breakdown rifleman path

[Dabbart]

I wonder if mythic ever had a formula for dps based on range. But I feel sure that the inability to detaunt the attacker would of drastically reduced the damage on super long attacks.

Just my opinion ofc. But I have thought that any damage past the 120ft point should face a reduction. The fact you can still target and cast should be enough of an advantage with out full damage as well.

The arguement of attacking me when I can't hit you is irrelevant, since every melee class suffers this in relation to rdps. It's the lack of ability to detaunt that I dislike personally. Even more so, when in the middle of a fight and can't quickly tell how far said engi/magus is away. Is it worth to push forward to get that detaunt risking a cannon smash? Or try and pull out not knowing if they still have nearly 100ft of range to snipe from? LoS breaking is my standard strat, but one can't rely on terrain all the time.

Just my thoughts. Good discussion here however.

[Tesq]

@dabbart bear in mind that currently pre changes appart snipe /Boc all skill/rotation had the same range of a bw/sorc on first path but way longer cast time and bit faster cast time still inferior to bw/sorc dot rotataiton but also closer range in mid path.
To the opposide we have now most of skill over that point on first path some have too much range and the lack of range buff to the flamer pet basically re put back again the mid mastery; so ye something need to be done but longer the cast, higer the distance. I should say also squigshier the class, but engi/magus dont have a lot of kiting potentially appart load the enemy with immunity and if they are melee and you get take you're dead meat so even with a little more of armor there is not a lot to take into account.

[Fousek]

I wonder if mythic ever had a formula for dps based on range. But I feel sure that the inability to detaunt the attacker would of drastically reduced the damage on super long attacks.

Just my opinion ofc. But I have thought that any damage past the 120ft point should face a reduction. The fact you can still target and cast should be enough of an advantage with out full damage as well.

I remember 7k+ Festering Arrows on 120ft range on live servers...

[dur3al]

As stated several times. RoR Development is a parallel thing with people's working on different agendas. And the devs know which and what. So if they don't do any events like Halloween or balance stuff from Aza it wouldn't increase development of client control any tiny bit of time .

Devs could adjust the stuff they can at the moment. And with that the engie is a ton more fun to play than on life.
Some people complain that with the changes they don't feel any more contributing. With the recent changes I feel contributing with my Engi apart from being a pullbot.

Couldn't the energy being spent into changing back and forth every other day be used to fix bugs though? Again, i'm not trying to flame or anything, just pondering. I'm sure if people are capable of changing abilities, they're also able to work on fixing non-working abilities... As far as I'm aware its only Londo is working full time in client control.

As to the fact they made engineer more fun to you I'm glad for you, but it might've made everyone's else lives less fun by having to deal with them in this current state. Thought about that?

Me personally I don't mind to many of the changes, i'll adapt to whatever, but its my opinion that energy and time is being spent non-efficiently. There are so many bug reports who sit forever at "Confirmation Request", I mean one guy who can access 2 accounts at the same time could confirm it and move on to fix it... All the energy being spent into balancing, could be used to test every single skill in the game and see if its working no? I don't know, for me it seems kinda silly.