[Feedback] Engineer / Magus Changes

[Grunbag]

Because the Engi/Magus weren't changed around premade play?

Actually I'm fairly sure that Havoc was changed around premade/6-man play.

I highly doubt that, because then the classes should have been reworked completely and not just given more damage/range. They would need some kind of utility like a Healdebuff, a CD increaser, a CD decreaser for their team or some things like that.

Thats why you still see rarely see destro rdps premades, because the utility on the classes is just not at all as good as the order counterparts.

At the beta version , magus / engineer has a lot of buff /debuff that just got removed at release like a KD , silence , armor debuff etc . But dev cannot bring those abilities back til they don't get client control

[Tesq]

Yes but you forgot that magus has te wounds buff that gives him 1500 heal instant. Maybe in a aoe build the magus doesn't really care about this heal but for the havoc? (Long range) tree this is really usefull . I don't think the heal keg is the bigger problem for destro . On live no one complain about it as far as I remember , why now it is an issue ?
Maybe the problem is where the keg is in the tinkerer tree , but if you swap it with magnet it would be even worse you'll have many napalm/magnet build.

same argument of cannon smash no one complain about it because that was not a reason to take a engi because you exachange 1 bw aoe dmg for 1 keg and that was ok, in the moment you start buff these classes dmg, you cant't keep the same utility, the very reason why a pull both as engi/magus should not do the same dmg of a BW sorc, should still do a good ammount of dmg but not so much.

that's exatly my use of the that skill i'm currently using that with havoc path due the fact that after last change you do not need anymore the dmg from rend wind . I go mono first path + 3rd for heals only. But this is likely a bad exemple for a skill put on a aoe mastery .

The ST build should be first and second mastery; and regardless a self heal is only used in solo play that dosen't have really a lot to do with st /balance. Also if you are willing to spec a tactic then you deserve a heal; keg is spamable , tactic free, 9 target; heal can crit differentrly from live (as can chosen/kobs regen auras). magus heal me for 2k currently and then it's gone for 60 sec...not much a usefull aoe stuff (edit -->2000:60sec are 33,33 heal x sec while keg dish out 3x heal every sec to 9 ppl, if the dmg compenent should fill the hole the it should be at least spamable as keg does or either be very very powerfull in return to create moment of burst).

[Glorian]

@lektroluv :
What I see is that you're more bother by rifleman ( snipers build ) than grenadier or tinkerer .
I don't play rifleman , test it a bit when it got buffed but I didn't found it attractive .
First , don't get wrong a sniper build cannot use the flameturret cause of the range debuff of the turret , the only engineers that use the flameturret (with disrupt/dodge) are tinkerer who are really exposed to mdps . They can't reach to caster unless they sit at their feets (50feet range not more) . I play engineer , now when I want to place my mine to debuff casttime healer /caster I have to walk all through the mdps to be closer to the caster , and it make me out of heal from my own healer , so I have risk with that turret : staying stationnary and deal with mdps without bother caster (which is the goal of a tinkerer , not an engineer that is looking to have the highest dmg in scenario) , or moving out of my turret /guard /healer to go to healer caster trying to do my job .
It could be frustrating for rdps to meet this kind of engineer , but if you compared them like a tank why are you focusing them ? You better focus weakest rdps or healer first and when you done , just finish tinkerers at the same time than tanks .
If you don't find the dodge disrupt good , what would you give to tinkerer ? Keep in mind that we have ridiculous range as tinkerer.

For snipers , it's another story : that's the new built for solo / casual player that playing RoR to make max of kill /laugh . Dev already nerf the gunturret , nerf the sniper , as I suggest in another thread they finally put the sniper ability to 13 points (that was unfair that sniper was able the have a build with sniper / +15% crit tactic and heal keg . Now it's impossible to have those 3 abilities and I'm agree with that .
Maybe it's not enough and the tree need to be nerf again , but that would be decided by dev .
If you want a nerf of dmg boost for gunturret , then we shouldn't have to lose the 4 stack when turret got destroyed (we can't stand 16seconds static , for having a small dmg boost and risk to lose 4 stack really quickly)

About the ability to reach high def stats
I want to Be clear with that too : yes we can stack armor (set , jewel , talis , buff , tactic , potion ) but to have to high def stats we lose all dps ( I am currently testing a full support def build) I can reach to 4+ armor but I have only 393 BS , and 0% crit rate . It's impossible (or tell me how to do) to have 4K+ armor , 550 toughness , 0% crit reduce , 600/800 resist , 24% dodge disrupt , and have decent dps stats (BS and crit rate)
I don't think riflemen have any good def stats so they can be killed by WE easily (maybe I'm wrong , I don't play rifleman a WE might tell us)

Everything what Grunbag says is true.
Tanky Engi has the above numbered armor and resists. And a BS of around 400-500.
There is no nameable burst a tank-engineer can generate.
The other Engi, the sniper had its peak of power after the Range, plus 40% damage buff.
After that he got several nerfs as mentioned: Turret dps, Range to 140%, toilet paper wounds on gun turret, snipe CD, snipe moved in left tree.

So what is your nerf/balance purpose?

Damage to 20% and range to 100%?

Congrats, we are back to 1.4.8 with a worse turret, snipe higher in tree.

@keg: I don't understand why it is out of a sudden case. Yes it is an AoE heal. Yes it can crit. Woho! 450 health instead of 300 every 3 seconds where you can't select the target.
Yes, magus has a self heal for same amount but instant and not AoE.

So what is your balance sollution?
Magus get a keg and Engi's damage changed to Corp?

[adei]

Who cares about non-premade balance? Why should balance revolve around people not being in a group? I honestly struggle to fathom why.

If you are in a group with other players, and are playing as a group, i.e. as you should be. - regardless of class composition/voice comms - you are a premade.

There are a lot of people complaining, yes, but why is it that the majority of these complaints seem to stem from pug play, and not premade play?

And panny boy is at it again, I also can't fathom how your views are just as short sighted as others, if every change made here has been solely around 6 man/premade play then I would truly laugh my ass off.

I guess we should always be playing in a group guys, sorry to those of you who don't have the time, who can't be bothered, or simply don't want to, shame on you for doing what you want.

Guess why most complaints come from pug players... because they make up 80% of this server, the actual 'premade' scene itself is so small compared to the overall playerbase that its not even funny. Most people won't like changes because its not what they play, its the same understanding of why bother to balance around anything at all? I don't like the changes myself, I already made my case that the engi/magus should have had its ranged slightly lowered while maintaining its damage, but I guess #pugplay.

[Azarael]

So what is your nerf/balance purpose?

Damage to 20% and range to 100%?

Congrats, we are back to 1.4.8 with a worse turret, snipe higher in tree.

It's about time someone said it. People in here are acting as if making Improvised Upgrades or Unholy Empowerment stack a few more times compared to live, with no other changes (which is what the 40% damage buff amounts to) would miraculously make Engineer and Magus balanced. It would not. It would revert them, broadly, to live.

There are always going to be classes, specs and elements that perform better against lower tier opposition than they do higher tier. That alone will not convince me to risk killing these classes. Both Engineers and Magi are lore-wise very powerful units, and I won't see them trashed again.

As for the people talking about ditching the concept and making them mobile: you're going to need a career mechanic for them if you remove the pet / static concept. Think you can introduce one without redesigning the class from the ground up, an action which would be completely untenable even for someone like me, and without making the pet a stupid afterthought / liability? Good luck.

[Tesq]

@ade i do agree on the sligh range nerf but i think it range should be made skill linked and not linked to the pet; all first path skill should be 150 with no additional range buff that would allow to have more stable conclusion about engi/magus range, middle should be 85-100 feet(and while right path 40feet.

with first path static, mid path mobile and third path , duno something that do not make with hold the line engi/magus a tank, they could preserve the buff done but brought more in line.

@aza no you dont need to remove the pet, just remove the need be mobile "aroudn the pet" and lower the cd of the redeploy skill.
OF course flee or kiting too much will result in dmg loss but that should be pretty right not?

[Azarael]

That's exactly what I'm talking about. If you lower the cooldown of the redeploy skill, what is the pet? An annoyance that you have to remember to constantly resummon. It's Auras MK2.

[sotora]

As for the people talking about ditching the concept and making them mobile: you're going to need a career mechanic for them if you remove the pet / static concept. Think you can introduce one without redesigning the class from the ground up, an action which would be completely untenable even for someone like me, and without making the pet a stupid afterthought / liability? Good luck.

I frankly thought of getting rid of pet completly , simply no more turrets/demons, but if redesigning class completly is not something that is on the table in future then I rest my case because currently I do not see any option of Engi/Magus being both viable for competetive 6-man setup and not being widely hated and complained by rest of general game population.

My Magus is still young so maybe I dont see something

[Tankbeardz]

That's exactly what I'm talking about. If you lower the cooldown of the redeploy skill, what is the pet? An annoyance that you have to remember to constantly resummon. It's Auras MK2.

It's already that.

[Tesq]

That's exactly what I'm talking about. If you lower the cooldown of the redeploy skill, what is the pet? An annoyance that you have to remember to constantly resummon. It's Auras MK2.

mm not really 85-100 feet range is quite high if:

-you can cast all on the move
-the stack drop little by little

it sound to me more as a working meccanic that go up and down as it should every meccanic for a damage dealer at some point.

auras would been just refresh for full eff again, this would not be the case actually being an annoiance is necessary to not allow keep kite the magus/engi but it requrie you to re summon the pet while you move togheter with detaunt and possible snare
With everything with a 40% dmg buff and resummon which do not cost stack and a lower cd and all on the move it would be very very fun to play.
Couple that with lower cast time for both summon and resummon (1 sec and half and istant) and an ap drop.

I still remember spamable rend wind on the move from tier 1 back in the days it was very fun.