Blackguard

[Bozzax]

It's not just skull thumper and stat steal, you have loudmouth with can proc procs which is insane in double dok groups. You have perma aoe snare disorient and str debuff, cooldown increaser that puts any debuff BG has to shame, AP regen for group, and insane damage.

Sorry to break it to you. It is not like that anymore LM is of type proc now.

Our BOs in a sov environment will be no way near as effective dps as in current anni/merc/ruin env (with low armor and gimped ini).

AP-regen is nice and CD inc is great but BGs also have several good tricks.

And saying morale pump is underwhelming blows my mind, 10 sec from start of fight CC+DS combo from your tanks, or how about having a clear advantage over any order comp as soon as the 40+ sec mark hits as you have bellow/ID up on CD. Classes that don't have morale pump virtually never get to m3/4 becuase morale gain on this server is extremely gimped from live.

Quote me on saying it is underwhelming. I'm saying I'm not as obsessed as you are about them and how they affect team play.

It's also not just mara that covers BG debuffs, it's chosen/WE/CH as well. The only thing BG brings is a long KD that's not on demand, a semi powerful AP drain, and 20% crit debuff. Ch/BO both have better utility, chosen has better CC and BO has gobs more damage.

If basic avoidance and CC is moved within 9pts like it is on all other tanks I'd have no problem taking a BG into a 6man.

[Tesq]

the bg survability it's not the main problem it's the required cost, as boxx said stuff on mastery it's too high, you need to invest too much for things that due to your ROLE you should have for base or an easy acces to.

The BG it's a debuffer it mean that it make the rest better, the fact that it have no real defense for the party it's his great weakness and so the problem of that snare be in on 13pt.
This is especially true in 2h , BG debuff 9 ppl make it back for have no real group buff that woud dotherwise buff 6 ppl actually make 3 party doing better, that's a lot of hell of trade off, with snare 2h would be very good, it is alredy good for Orvr the only problem i got it's the lack of hold the line style like sm only when you are in tank wall and you need to push.
All this was tested with a rank40 - 20/30 renown points and the bg alredy performed well enough compared to a chosen/BO rr 40.

With a bit of love BG would definetly have it's use, just some skill redisposition would be enough i belive.

The s+b situation it's different you just pick s+b for KD, while you could just do the same set up with out it.
Still most of bg tools are inside teh range of 9-13 pt while ib have all inside a range of 5-7/9; that's a lot of difference.

@footpatrol while i appreciate your post generaly ( and no one answerd yours) your last one make few sense regarding the disposition of stuff, if stuff is in bad place it dosen't matter if you need 2 bg for spam aoe snare, it's too high on the mastery it very limit bg Build; same goes of parry tactic BG should be able to have it earlier with less point to invest.
And the Main cc should be core as BO/SM or in the same position chosen have stag.

[Gobtar]

@footpatrol while i appreciate your post generaly ( and no one answerd yours) your last one make few sense regarding the disposition of stuff, if stuff is in bad place it dosen't matter if you need 2 bg for spam aoe snare, it's too high on the mastery it very limit bg Build; same goes of parry tactic BG should be able to have it earlier with less point to invest.
And the Main cc should be core as BO/SM or in the same position chosen have stag.

Wot?

There used to be a very LARGE con to taking a marauder in a mainly DE group. Less morale gain.

Spoiler:

You could go pure DE and gain faster morale gain and have all your racial morale's increase really fast and get you faster access to your morale 4's like 1001 blessings and Khaine's warding and other tricks I haven't listed such as morale bombs.

You would still get the tools the marauder brings but just a little less which got outweighed by the faster morale gain and having the racial morale's synergize better then having a marauder. Its apples/oranges. Do you care about morale bombs and ending the fight very fast? Apples/Oranges. DE got a little less then what Chaos could due. It adds uniqueness and flavor to the races. Not a HUGE deal considering the gains of faster morale gain.

Note: You can also force parries with the BG. If morale 4's are common place to be taken. The first 6 point abilities can be taken in your off-spec without gutting your build. Take a anguish BG with Elite training and force parries to get your Blade of Ruin out. Damage value's are whatever. Maybe Blade of ruin damage value needs to be increased but I don't think the mechanic needs to change.

As for wave of scorn being able to be cleansed well there are checks and balances in this game. It is a AE frontal snare that doesn't require a tactic to be used so it is weaker then the BO snare because of such. You can still due crazy tactic slot switches with all 4 tactic slots on the BG and still maintain that snare. To maintain the snare on the BO you HAVE to slot that tactic.

Woah...hold it! The state where Marauders were even considered to be taken for a spot in the group was WAY past when racial tactics was even a thing, we are talking about years. Push your racial warband narrative someplace else please.

[Tesq]

that's not an answer to how we are consdiering BG... his first post was ignored and i was ansewring to that, cuz i like @foot patrol racial perspective of racial groups but was just saying there was no need cuz for the most part we were talk about swap things around and that in no way fix/nerf/Chage racial interation between classes.

[footpatrol2]

@gobtar
What I wrote about has nothing to due with a narrative on racial warbands. Thats you projecting and using things I have written on in the past unfairly against me. Your using a logical fallacy.

[Azarael]

@gobtar
What I wrote about has nothing to due with a narrative on racial warbands. Thats you projecting and using things I have written on in the past unfairly against me. Your using a logical fallacy.

He's right, though. You make everything about racial warbands and I've seen no evidence that anyone cares about that except you. Stick to discussion regarding the actual meta and not what you wish it could be.

[footpatrol2]

No I don't make everything about racial warbands. You too now azarael are projecting.

[Azarael]

No I don't make everything about racial warbands. You too now azarael are projecting.

Let's get something clear.

Firstly, the act of projecting is assigning behavioural traits to someone else which one is in fact guilty of. Unless you see me making topics and posts based around racial warbands, I am not projecting. Learn the definition.

Secondly, the way you drag everything onto the topic of racial warbands, usually dropping a wall of text while doing so, has not gone unnoticed. If you think it's just we two who have noticed it? Nope. The advent of a footpatrol2 wall of text heralds much topical amusement within our general chat circle.

Stop dragging everything onto the topic of racial warbands. If you're going to post on balance topics, you will refer to group compositions which are actually viable in the current metagame. You can consider that an instruction rather than an observation now.

[Gobtar]

I was not projecting sir, you brought up racial tactics, morale pumping which is part of a narrative you have been attempting to push for some time. My point is this:

In a game state where there are racial morale tactics; Marauders were not a viable member of the meta, thus your declaration that marauders had to vie for a spot in a Dark Elf Racial party based off of the supposition that morale racial tactics were a factor at all in group composition, is untrue.

This knowing full well that in a game state where racial tactics were available, a marauder wouldn't even be taken in a Chaos group because the Chosen need not worry about said racial tactics, and they had access the Choppas who had by far the best armor debuff in the game at the time. Yes there was a time where Choppa was the best STMDPS in the game.

In a game state where marauders were highly sought after, black guard were not, and racial tactics were no longer a thing. Not to mention Black Guard during the game state where racial tactics existed where considered the weakest tanks in the game and were only taken for their ability to disorient.


To the discussion; Black guard need to be addressed on terms of their role as a tank. I would suggest allowing them to be a parry based tank, much like the Sword master and chosen rather than a block based tank. In regards to moving tactics you need to consider what makes the BG "viable" and ensure that the BG is removed from having one TRUE spec.

@ Tesq: you and I have discussed this at length in a different thread,

At the moment that is a malice / Anguish spec. I have detailed much of how to go about this in the BG forums however I put that on hold until such time that the devs wish to open a conversation on the BG. If you wish to re-read my original thoughts you can do so starting here:

viewtopic.php?f=73&t=10659&start=40#p121343

[footpatrol2]

@Azarael

Spoiler:

My focus is understanding the original balance of this game. Why were things placed the way they were? When patch changes happened, why did they change things the way they did?

Why am I so intensely orientated on understanding the original balance on this game? Because players think the balance is completely out of wack. It is a puzzle and I like figuring out puzzle's. I'm just that type of person. Always have been. Always will be.

I've come to a conclusion through studying, researching, and experimenting that this game was based on racial groups. Not racial warbands. But racial groups. I get ridiculed by the community for my findings and sharing them. I still stand by them because I feel they are correct despite the shaming I get from the community which is a form of group think protection.

I'm sorry I deliver my information in a wall of text. Nuance points have to be made which require more explaining.

I also don't focus on 6 man's. Because the majority of SC's in this game was at the 12 man level or larger. So I scale to the environment I participate in. You can also participate in most aspects of ORVR easier at the 12 man level. I don't self limit myself like the rest of the competitive community in this regard.

Human beings by default reject when people think differently to them as a gut reaction. It is natural. That gut reaction can be so strong and the want to preserve group think is so strong, that they might actually kill that person. When old mathematicians said the world was round based on their research, and experimenting, they were literally killed by the educated community at the time and it was celebrated and praised for doing as such. I had to expand my train of thought so FAR away from current meta thinking to understand why the original dev's decided to make the decisions they did. When I return back too the community I'm a outcast because of my new train of thought is so different.

I don't really write about racial warbands. Key word here is Warbands. I write about racial groups. I did write about racial warbands a handful of times when I was brainstorming with the community a very long time ago, which I am now punished and labeled as the racial warbands guy. I am not a warbands guy nor am I a person that is intensely focused on approaching competitive play at only the 6 man level. Again I focus on 12 man's because you can participate in most aspects of the game at that level.

Back on point of this thread.
I mentioned things that were possible at one point in this game that could have been conducted with the BG and Dok. None of that has anything to due with racial warbands. I did this to show the racial group synergy. All I care about is what is/was possible. I only concern myself with meta so I know what is popular at the time and how I can counter it. I don't get wrapped up in it. Meta changes overtime and there are things overlooked by meta a lot. Look at the proc meta happening currently. Months ago it would be said it wouldn't be possible.