about exploits

[bloodi]

The community are only going to employ this retribution against players who have caused damage worthy of holding a grudge for so long.

This is where we disagree, the community can and will **** up too, so can the staff. Neither can ever be faultless.

If you dont believe people can see their wrongdoings and become better persons, well thats on you but it can happen, someone who uses racial slurs today can realize what an idiot he was tomorrow.

But hey, i am the guy who has friends in Jail so i guess i am kinda biased on this aspect but i can tell you from experience that terrible human beigns can become someone perfectly integrated in society with some years and experience, i wouldnt want them to have to bear the consequences of what they did for live when they already paid the price in time.

[Danielle]

Regarding the rest of the topic: I don't really see it as bullying if someone gets wrecked for doing something that's a taboo, and if anything I would completely endorse anyone's right to shun anyone else or discriminate against them based on misconduct that they have committed. If I see that someone gets a ban for using the n-word against a black person, for example, would I refuse to associate with that person and feel justified in doing so? Yes, any day of the week. That in itself serves to reinforce the idea that if you behave reprehensibly, you may find that there are lasting long-term consequences for having done so. For people who lack empathy, this is one of the few tools left.

Let's be honest here: active discrimination against rulebreakers is going to last for a duration quite related to the nature of the offense in question. The community are only going to employ this retribution against players who have caused damage worthy of holding a grudge for so long. I think it's no more than legitimate players deserve to be informed when people violate the rules in a way which cheapens a legitimate player's game experience.

Yes, but context matters a great deal in these situations. For instance would you refuse to associate yourself with this singer because he uses the the 'N' word? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJMramLf1JI&t=0m30s Some people actually consider that video racist because he uses it.

By thinking that active discrimination is going to be proportionate you assume all the legitimate players will immediatly understand all of the context of the bans. I would say that is highly optimistic.

[Azarael]

OK, so you both disagree that everyone will be understanding and proportionate. That may be true. Are the existing tools to deal with this not sufficient for those who do go too far, namely GMs and ignore?

Another point I feel should not be lost is that the main reason for transparency is protection of GMs by denying banned players the opportunity to misrepresent their own bans as being unjustified.

[dontcomplainx]

Would be great if the Dev team give the names of the Gold exploiters too.

[bloodi]

The issue of going to far we are talking about is more specifically what players can do with such a list of names, imagine the following, you have a compiled list of names, how hard would it to make an addon that checks that list and what is on your warband or tells you x person is on the list when you click on them?

Specially because that may become a staple and everyone runs it, they dont even know why people are on that list but they do know that that is the list for bad people and bad people are bad, you dont want anything to do with them.

In that situation, a temporal ban becoes a defacto permanent ban, you just cannot play the game.

The problem as always is not the existance of the list or the idea behind it, its what players can do with such a list.

Perphaps restricting access to the ban section and just screenshotting it when someone tries to misrepresent their ban in the appeal is the best idea. The reason of the ban would still be there, with name and date and a screenshot would suffice.

[Zanilos]

The issue of going to far we are talking about is more specifically what players can do with such a list of names, imagine the following, you have a compiled list of names, how hard would it to make an addon that checks that list and what is on your warband or tells you x person is on the list when you click on them?

Specially because that may become a staple and everyone runs it, they dont even know why people are on that list but they do know that that is the list for bad people and bad people are bad, you dont want anything to do with them.

In that situation, a temporal ban becoes a defacto permanent ban, you just cannot play the game.

The problem as always is not the existance of the list or the idea behind it, its what players can do with such a list.

Perphaps restricting access to the ban section and just screenshotting it when someone tries to misrepresent their ban in the appeal is the best idea. The reason of the ban would still be there, with name and date and a screenshot would suffice.

The same damage that can happen on the Ban Appeal forum and see who has had their account wiped for botting and do the same thing.

But I still see Peterpan playing, Tomato played after being banned, even Bretin rocked up after his 3rd or 4th I quit post on the forums, Krisolyub will continue I imagine.

I just see no evidence of what you are saying to have any actual facts behind it.

[Nekkma]

The issue of going to far we are talking about is more specifically what players can do with such a list of names, imagine the following, you have a compiled list of names, how hard would it to make an addon that checks that list and what is on your warband or tells you x person is on the list when you click on them?

There was an addon called "asshat" on live which pretty much did this by adding an "asshat icon" above anyone you placed on your list. Was developed by a healer who did not want to heal people he considered "asshats".

I do not think this is such a big problem tbh. People have no right beeing in guilds, groups etc. I personally dislike certain individuals because of ingame or forum behaviour and can admit that they recieve less healing and guarding from me.

Edit: I do think that if names are disclosed the present "no appeal" policy should go. If you are publicly accused in a "name and shame" manner you should be allowed to defend yourself.

[Danielle]

OK, so you both disagree that everyone will be understanding and proportionate. That may be true. Are the existing tools to deal with this not sufficient for those who do go too far, namely GMs and ignore?

Another point I feel should not be lost is that the main reason for transparency is protection of GMs by denying banned players the opportunity to misrepresent their own bans as being unjustified.

Given the current 'feel' of the server I would say your second point about transparency that clearly demonstrates GMs are fair in their decisions is more important than protecting the banned players. In general I would suggest only making bans public if there is a ban appeal or the banned player actively tries to publicly misrepresent their case. Then again it's about what system works best for this server. I haven't seen much of any player discrimination yet, whereas we already had that fairly awful case with a vendetta against a GM. Whilst in general I think one should strive to make sure the community doesn't go overboard by making rule-breakers known, if it's your assessment as lead developer that building trust between GMs and players and establishing the fairness of GMs is priority right now over that, then I wouldn't contradict you.

[zazie]

Should also remove all currency/items from accounts that were temp banned (equipped/non equipped, including medallions)

Make these players get farmed just as bad as they farmed people by exploiting the game.

[Ossos]

in my modest opinion all the exploiters/cheaters/cool kids (you choose the name) deserve an invite to bugtracker team