Nerfed Buttons

[Jail]

Away with it. It's like if a tennis player's racket automatically picked the rotation with which he hits the ball for him depending on how he set it up. Might as well go and play against a bot instead.

That comparison

[Gnash]

To no poster in particular, and for the consideration of all interested, in my personal opinion, the decision to use; and implementation of NB closely relates (very closely) to scholastic/academic "learning styles": Visual, Verbal and Kinesthetic.

-Visual: prefers seeing pictures depicting what's being taught, or watching an instructor perform necessary functions often more than once before memory retention allows recall enough for success; (watchers, usually choose seats in back of classroom for learning comfort)
-Verbal: prefers to read words on paper or overhead projector screen, or hear instructions read aloud, recorded or live, as well as benefitting from passing on learned ideas as a means to retention and recall (Owner's Manual Collectors; Listeners; Note takers; Public Speakers; Lecturers usually choose mid classroom seating off to the left and right, and/or front row seating for ease of aksing questions/conversing with instructor)
-Kinesthetic: prefers a "hands on" approach, tactically oriented learners often desiring physical contact with learning material, whether "wrenching" on mechatronics physical and/or cyberspace constructed; (Quintessential "DIY"-ers)

In my experience, none of us are a single category, most being some ratio of all three to personally varying degrees, a mix of just two being rather rare.

Eliminating the opportunity for a learning style to receive knowledge in the fashion best suited for their success in their chosen endeavors, or worse, forcing one style to retain/recall in a way they quite literally are not wired for, eliminates up to a third of any 'graduating class', or player population, or whatever one could apply in a given situation.

Plus, Public API Functions blow NB to Nurgle and back.

Good Hunting.

[Zealote]

Spoiler:

That just seems like a re-hash of "everyone can use it so it's fine". As already pointed out, you can extend that reasoning to any possible addon, regardless of how absurd and game-changing it might be, so it's not really a convincing argument in itself.

Indeed, it is not an argument on the principal level whether NB should be allowed or not. However, it completely kills the argument against NB that it provides an "unfair advantage". Every single addon I use is to enhance my performance and provide me with an advantage. Try play the game without any addons and then tell me if addons does not provide an advantage.

I agree that "NB provides an advantage and therefore has to go" isn't a valid argument, but the rest of my paragraph that you haven't quoted is relevant here:

[...] The difference(s) between NB and other other addons has (have) also been highlighted, and even if other addons were considered problematic (e.g. if there is/were one that emulates NB's conditionals), I don't see any reason they couldn't also be removed if possible.

This exact same point has also already been discussed near the very beginning of the thread. E.g. on pg. 5, in response to Morf, I wrote:

Your point about other addons also giving an advantage has already been addressed: it's a question of the extent of that advantage, and the type of the advantage that it can provide, namely the complete removal --in some instances-- of the need to make conscious gameplay decisions.

....................

Spoiler:

This is just not as black and white to me as it seems to most. Some advocate it being removed as they would benefit from it and some want it to stay as they are used to using it.

May I also point out that the "easiest" classes (typically least abilities used) are already the strongest classes of respective archetype. They will benefit most from NB removal.

Over all I think removing it would result in less players online for this aging game which imo is worse then keeping it.

Yeah, as a kind of conflict of interest disclosure: as someone who doesn't use it, I imagine I would personally benefit from NB being removed.

Re it benefiting easier classes (with fewer abilities) more: is that actually true? And if so, to what degree? It's obviously the case when it comes to using ability strings that reduce the number of buttons needed, but it's not necessarily true of the conditionals. Players of both types of class, "easier" and "harder", would see an increase in difficulty, and it's not obvious to me that the increase for the former would be much greater than that for the latter.

Assuming for now though that it is true, I'm still not sure I agree that that's a good reason to keep it: if there's an issue with varying class difficulty that people want resolved, then relying on an addon that many (indeed the large majority in this thread) consider unacceptable/unfair/"cheating" doesn't seem a great way of going about it.

The only other counterargument that I can see, and the one you've brought up as well, is the -ve effect it might have on the population. That's probably the only one so far that's had much merit imo, especially given the current lower pop. Two remarks:

-I'm personally doubtful of how many people would actually leave solely because lof NB being removed. Plenty of people threaten to leave if X is done/changed, and then don't;

-Not doing something because some people might conceivably leave is risky (incidentally, there's only been one clear threat to do so in this thread iirc?). The devs have made it clear that they intend to attempt to balance classes in the future, and that's likely to elicit a lot of backlash and threats to leave from some people; I suppose only they can weigh the risk vs reward when it comes to NB specifically.

....................

@Gnash Like some of your other posts, I find that one obscure and verbose; I say that more as an FYI than as an attack, since I think it detracts from whatever you might be trying to say, particularly in threads like these. Your analogy between individual learning styles (a largely unevidenced concept btw) and NB seems completely off, at least when it comes to the conditional checks, since the whole point of the former is that you're expressing the same information, just in different ways (visual, auditory etc), which is far more accurately descriptive of what, say, Pure or Buffhead do, than what NB is capable of.

[roadkillrobin]

I would like to point out another factor why addons like NB, Twister and other sequence addons is good for games like these aslong as there is a GCD to regulate to APM. I have a personal friend who was born with rheumatism wich prevented his arms and fingers to grow. Thanks to these addons he was able to play WAR.

[Akalukz]

I still think one of the biggest questions is. Can the Dev's gut NB yet keep other addons functioning.

[Gachimuchi]

I was introduced to NB by an ex guildie who happens to be a programmer, so you can imagine what kind of ideas he would have to cover all of the bases for conditions and different circumstances to be able to spam 1 button and be somewhat effective. I say somewhat because contrary to popular belief, no matter how much automation NB can provide it is not a substitution for human thought. Even he agreed that it wasn't an optimal way to play, it just makes it easier to play at an average level.

Personally, I use it for two things. Double heal pot(double potting should be removed) and spammable DPS rotation consiting of 2-3 abilities that do not carry an important debuff component, just damage. If NB is removed I'll have to use 4 more buttons on my keyboard. Not a big deal. Not that it really matters that much what I do with it, just saying.

One possible advantage that was somewhat valid raised by one of my friends; using a spammable positional (Agonizing Wound, Spine Crusher, Go for da soft spot, Torment) instead of a spammable anytimer. I don't think this is that important for two reasons:
1. If you are just running around a target or not actively trying to get behind them you will not likley land the positional, because if you are spamming your anytimer for whatever small period of time you are behind the target you will be unable to use it due to the GCD.
2. It's really not that hard to walk around behind someone and spam your positional.

What NB provides helps up to a point, any more than that and it becomes a hindrance. NB is not something that needs to be 'addressed' or 'removed' because it is not game-breaking in any way shape or form. All of the people whining about it need to do something more productive with their lives.

[Forbiddian]

I was introduced to NB by an ex guildie who happens to be a programmer, so you can imagine what kind of ideas he would have to cover all of the bases for conditions and different circumstances to be able to spam 1 button and be somewhat effective. I say somewhat because contrary to popular belief, no matter how much automation NB can provide it is not a substitution for human thought. Even he agreed that it wasn't an optimal way to play, it just makes it easier to play at an average level.

Personally, I use it for two things. Double heal pot(double potting should be removed) and spammable DPS rotation consiting of 2-3 abilities that do not carry an important debuff component, just damage. If NB is removed I'll have to use 4 more buttons on my keyboard. Not a big deal. Not that it really matters that much what I do with it, just saying.

One possible advantage that was somewhat valid raised by one of my friends; using a spammable positional (Agonizing Wound, Spine Crusher, Go for da soft spot, Torment) instead of a spammable anytimer. I don't think this is that important for two reasons:
1. If you are just running around a target or not actively trying to get behind them you will not likley land the positional, because if you are spamming your anytimer for whatever small period of time you are behind the target you will be unable to use it due to the GCD.
2. It's really not that hard to walk around behind someone and spam your positional.

What NB provides helps up to a point, any more than that and it becomes a hindrance. NB is not something that needs to be 'addressed' or 'removed' because it is not game-breaking in any way shape or form. All of the people whining about it need to do something more productive with their lives.

and of course this come from a guy who uses it

[Stilton]

I use it, i have conditionals... I wont really care if it gets removed..

The amount of time's i've seen 'skill ceiling' being talked about is pretty funny.. Having to press 1-2-3-4 is not much more complicated than pressing 1-1-1-1.

The conditionals 'hate' is understandable on some level; dispite the fact a lot of people claim its the ultimate addon but then seem to ask for people to explain what it can actually do...

Also, it's been addressed already but, it has many drawbacks, problems and if you 'rely' on it, and remove all your abilities off your hotbar's -- you've basically gimped yourself and you're about to die.

( Perhaps if you do have the 'perfect' sequence for all ocassions (lol), but best of luck to the person who spends days working that out and then accidently falls asleep and does get banned for botting. )


If you're removing it because it gives people an advantage, then it's time to start discussing where you draw the line ...
I see a lot of people replying saying 'remove it, but dont touch my precious addon x, that only gives me more information than the native client*' and the fact none of them has acknowledged they're being slightly hypocritical is amusing and disingenious.


*technically an advantage more than someone not using your addons? You see the double standard yet?

[Baine]

This is just not as black and white to me as it seems to most. Some advocate it being removed as they would benefit from it and some want it to stay as they are used to using it.

May I also point out that the "easiest" classes (typically least abilities used) are already the strongest classes of respective archetype. They will benefit most from NB removal.

Over all I think removing it would result in less players online for this aging game which imo is worse then keeping it.

Very much this ^^ . I actually read though the 18 pages of NB hate here. The Devs say if there's enough NB hate he'll remove it. The majority of this thread is a handful speaking great volumes against NB, a handful speaking for it, and each group mocking the other.

I think this, the mod is only as good as your knowledge of the game, and if you're THAT knowledgeable about the game you likely only make light use of the mod, preferring your own exacting decisions to an easily spammable key that doesn't hit the exact right key at the exact right time.

This is a low pop server, and it's the only WAR server left. I'm REALLY enjoying my time playing again, didn't know how much I missed this till I got back in the lakes. If this is a decision that might make people leave, I say stay with the status quo. We need more people not less.

Another thing you might consider, this 18 page argument will have people curious. I never bothered with NB during live, I played a Sorc, and felt my rotations were easy enough, and I had keys enough for what I used. However, this thread is serving as an advertisement for the very mod you want to go unused. I got to T4 on my BW and saw order has a lack of melee, my new IB just hit T3, and my usual keys are mostly full. NB feels like a good choice to consolidate a couple of the similar buff attacks together and free up bar space.

All press is good press, remember that as you nay-sayers advertise NB as an "I win" button. Oh, and I vote leave the mod.

[Morbidmind]

It automates a portion of gameplay if set up properly. I don't understand how there is still a discussion over whether this addon should be considered legitimate. On that basis alone, its been banned from WoW, and was an incredibly controversial addon during live. I don't use it, but I've looked at it, its complicated sure, but its nonsense. Just being able to set up auto pots is nonsense, and that's a tiny part of what it can do.

If you're willing to leave the game over an addon being removed, you clearly weren't that interested in the game to begin with, or you've started relying on said addon far too much. The map in RoR bugs out all the time, it'd be nice to have state of the realm around, no ones going to quit because it isn't.