Overarching balance changes

[roadkillrobin]

I honestly can't fathom how people believe balancing classes around 24v24 would translate well into smallscale/better than smallscale into large scale: it would necessitate x amount of players before a class could become 'viable'. RoR doesn't have many active WBs at all, and there are a far larger amount of smaller guilds roaming around than active WBs.

Noone is asking for single target dmg to be ballanced around 24v24 .That would just not translate well at all into 12v12 later coz heals would have to be boosted to around 100% of what they are now. What you seem to not fathom is that defensive stats and group heals and defensive buffs doesn't scale depening the format you're playing. If heals and defensive stats were ballanced on the dps output from 6v6 battle they would completly usless in 12v12 as the dps output would double under perfect circumstances.

We're talking about a ballance were a 12 man have about the same SINGLE TARGET dps output as a 24man warband does with AOE abillties ON A SINGLE TARGEET.(Maybe even a 18man WB) This has to be done to ballance group heals, defensive buffa, defensive stats in the game. And if this is done on to small scale like 6v6 or to large scale like 48v48 those stats and abillties just overpowered or obsolete. So when we look at the history of this game and the FACT that it had 0 permanent content for 6v6 It becomes really obvius that the game was ballanced for 12v12 in smaller scale combat.

...but while the DPS output doubles in a 12v12 - or quadruples in 24v24 - so too does the healing output, the amount of absorbs going on, the potential for M4, the amount of tanks and thus challenges/guards being applied. It is perfectly balanced.

No it doesn't. Groupheals and Absorbs, Morales, Buffs etz are all group based, and debuffs doesn't stack.
And it's not quadrupled in 24v24 as it's not effective to kill 1 target at the time anymore.

[peterthepan3]

They're group based, but in a good 2/2/2 warband setup with tanks guarding, using M4s when needed and challenging, and with good healers you should not die to another WB due to overwhelming damage but, rather, being outplayed. And if that is the case, that ought to be addressed.

Just as an aside: how would you go about balancing to ensure 6v6 is viable too?

[Jaycub]

WL is the only class in the game that doesn't bring anything unuiqe to a warband. And yes it needs to be fixed. I sugest we mirror the Morale draining tactic that Marauders have and we make Whirling Axe and Slashing Blade into Spirit damage for SM/WL synnergy

I wanted to bring this up when I speced for bomb WL before having to roll BW for our bomb groups. AoE spec WL is just awful.

The problem I see though, is any morale draining tactics on order can become extremely good if not mandatory. Remember that destro's biggest advantage is the fact they build morale much faster than order. They also have access to the best morale draining tactics.

IDK if that's a dynamic we want to keep, but I do know if you mirrored the mara morale drain on WL destro would be pretty mad.

Spoiler:

I would trade things like dirty tricks, exalted defenses, encouraged aim, focused mending, for morale gain tactics any day :^)

[roadkillrobin]

They're group based, but in a good 2/2/2 warband setup with tanks guarding, using M4s when needed and challenging, and with good healers you should not die to another WB due to overwhelming damage but, rather, being outplayed. And if that is the case, that ought to be addressed.

Just as an aside: how would you go about balancing to ensure 6v6 is viable too?

I would ballance for 12v12 and make sure it's as ballanced as possible. It wouldn't translate 100% to 6v6. Just like 12v12 doesn't translate 100% to 1v1 or 18v18 either But it's a good middle ground atm for single target damage.
1v1, 6v6 and 18v18 has never been standard formats in this game.

Another thing that could possible be done is scaling down defensive stats/groupsheals/defensive buffs in 6v6 instances.

[sanii]

WH/WE have a AoE spec that brings something that no other class does, very few seem to understand this tho.

Oh i would like to now what that is! I haven't played much of my WE nor my WH but now ur making me curious.

[roadkillrobin]

WL is the only class in the game that doesn't bring anything unuiqe to a warband. And yes it needs to be fixed. I sugest we mirror the Morale draining tactic that Marauders have and we make Whirling Axe and Slashing Blade into Spirit damage for SM/WL synnergy

I wanted to bring this up when I speced for bomb WL before having to roll BW for our bomb groups. AoE spec WL is just awful.

The problem I see though, is any morale draining tactics on order can become extremely good if not mandatory. Remember that destro's biggest advantage is the fact they build morale much faster than order. They also have access to the best morale draining tactics.

IDK if that's a dynamic we want to keep, but I do know if you mirrored the mara morale drain on WL destro would be pretty mad.

Spoiler:

I would trade things like dirty tricks, exalted defenses, encouraged aim, focused mending, for morale gain tactics any day :^)

Yeah it would be a hit to destruction, but they also using less BW and Slayers in their group comp means less dmg output and less need for the morales so it kinda ballance itself out. Noone really complained to much when both realms had same Morale drain on Sov gear even tho it was a bigger hit to Destruction then it was for Order so i don't think it would be broken tbh.

[roadkillrobin]

WH/WE have a AoE spec that brings something that no other class does, very few seem to understand this tho.

Oh i would like to now what that is! I haven't played much of my WE nor my WH but now ur making me curious.

I'll mail it to you, both builds and explenation how it works.

[grumcajs]

WH/WE have a AoE spec that brings something that no other class does, very few seem to understand this tho.

Oh i would like to now what that is! I haven't played much of my WE nor my WH but now ur making me curious.

I saw some ancient spec with dragon gun to aoe debuff healers output though never tried it cuz it kinda sounded to me horrible compared to other specs WH can spec for...

[roadkillrobin]

WH/WE have a AoE spec that brings something that no other class does, very few seem to understand this tho.

Oh i would like to now what that is! I haven't played much of my WE nor my WH but now ur making me curious.

I saw some ancient spec with dragon gun to aoe debuff healers output though never tried it cuz it kinda sounded to me horrible compared to other specs WH can spec for...

Trust me, all the single target specs are much more horrible in a situation were you face 24+ enemies.

[Eathisword]

Spoiler:

I honestly can't fathom how people believe balancing classes around 24v24 would translate well into smallscale/better than smallscale into large scale: it would necessitate x amount of players before a class could become 'viable'. RoR doesn't have many active WBs at all, and there are a far larger amount of smaller guilds roaming around than active WBs.

Noone is asking for single target dmg to be ballanced around 24v24 .That would just not translate well at all into 12v12 later coz heals would have to be boosted to around 100% of what they are now. What you seem to not fathom is that defensive stats and group heals and defensive buffs doesn't scale depening the format you're playing. If heals and defensive stats were ballanced on the dps output from 6v6 battle they would completly usless in 12v12 as the dps output would double under perfect circumstances.

We're talking about a ballance were a 12 man have about the same SINGLE TARGET dps output as a 24man warband does with AOE abillties ON A SINGLE TARGEET.(Maybe even a 18man WB) This has to be done to ballance group heals, defensive buffa, defensive stats in the game. And if this is done on to small scale like 6v6 or to large scale like 48v48 those stats and abillties just overpowered or obsolete. So when we look at the history of this game and the FACT that it had 0 permanent content for 6v6 It becomes really obvius that the game was ballanced for 12v12 in smaller scale combat.


...but while the DPS output doubles in a 12v12 - or quadruples in 24v24 - so too does the healing output, the amount of absorbs going on, the potential for M4, the amount of tanks and thus challenges/guards being applied. It is perfectly balanced.

No it doesn't. Groupheals and Absorbs, Morales, Buffs etz are all group based, and debuffs doesn't stack.
And it's not quadrupled in 24v24 as it's not effective to kill 1 target at the time anymore.

Well, you can heal out of group (RP/WP/Zeal/DoK, all have AoE radius -out of group- heals), single target cleanse out of group + challenge, AoE snare, Aoe spammed crippling strikes(destro)/Encouraged aim(order), and M3 Bellow affect enemy in a radius, so having tanks, no matter their group, cycle them will benefit all the WB. And allies also benefit greatly from HtL since in WB you can always have at least 2 different tanks spamming it for a perma 30% (possibly even 45%) dodge/disrupt.

A lot of stuff is group only, but there is also a lot of goodies that benefit everyone in WB play, especially if the 8 tanks coordinate their stuff well.

Just pointing the obvious...