Destro morale pump - SM/BO dominance

[Gachimuchi]

look at me i'm being irrelevant and posting off topic and trying to turn this into a balance the game around zergs instead of 6 mans thread

ok

[Tesq]

you know that aoe mara retain all st spec tactics but instead heal debuff have+20% crit tactic and hit 9 x target ye? that's an amazing dps for the survability that get and also an aoe KD.
You should just have a party with 1 mara and 1 magus to pull and aoe kd ppl and better deliver the aoe on the opponents or pull 1 healer while ppl is too much focus in the frontline directly into the aoe.

Mistakes are not less forgiveable than 6vs6 depepend who you have agianst and how much pressure they can put trough cc, substain, or in the way they deliver the hit(like take bomb on your healer in backlines).

SM is arguementaly togheter with BG the worst tank for orvr if it wasn't for CD reduction any party would pick an IB or 2x kobs. That's just an exemple of the lack of redundancy between some classes or the lack of a proper support distrubuition and also bad decision like give ST uilities to G/aoe class buffer like in case of super punt for ch/kobs and for last broken stuff like cc increase /decrease. Why would you even need an IB/BG if ch/kobs can alredy super punt the nemy and the combination of kobs/sm or ch/BO buff all stats and can mostly do anything that taking those classes?


again how you can actually balance in 6vs6 aoe that hit 9x ppl? you loose the damage on 3 ppl on every calculation aka, you cannot balance aoe in 6vs 6 enviroment so no you cant just balance all round 6vs 6. You can easily try to balance ST around 6vs6 and aoe around at least 12+ but generally each stuff need to looked in his zone of action and where is designed to be used.
-> generalize the action field of skills will just break the game.

[roadkillrobin]

Sorry but that is completly false.
Warbands have unit compositions that revolves around focusing areas rather then indivudal players. For example you bring a dps Zealot to healdebuff, armor debuff and corp ressist debuff an area so sorcs, choppas and marauder in the warband can more efficantly kill whats in the area. You bring a Magus to force people into the chosen area. And this is just the dps classes. And there's alot more to it aswell that i didn't even touch. This is stuff that doesn't even translate to 6v6 scale and one of the reasons why you have to look at the game from more then a 6v6 point view.

So....what you just described was a bomb group? which does run zelot tactic to stack with WAAAAGH! crop debuff? What does this specifically have to do with oRvR? why you would want a mara to spam loldemolition for AoE insted of a sorc and a choppa whom is apprantly running jagged edge insted of BF, dont wanna, SYG and Da Biggest/flanking is beyond me and what would it do? spam lotsa choppin?

But thats it once again, WB's and 12 mans are soo large and have soo many specs, and class distributions that its never uniform, its impossible to balance them unless you do massive reworks of core game mechanics , 6v6 has set compositions, is the highest level of play, and furthermore is the easiest to balance to.

Sorc uses Corp dmg, Choppas do physical dmg and thats why you spec for the Zealot tactic. You use Marauder for initive debuff to help Zealot proc the healdebuff on crit. You also use a 2hander BG to help with this. AoE Marauders are excelent at interupting casters and their dmg when ignore 50% armor, and do +50% crit dmg is actually pratty high especiually after Zealots Armor debuff. Then you run 2-3 groups of the classic BO, CH, SO, CH as main damage output. 1-2 Rift Maguses...you saying this isn't a warband composition?? And yes you use lotsa choppin. but main reason to run Choppas is to counter Slayers SL. You don't want the bomb rotation to be haltered by SL.

[TenTonHammer]

That's great you sure you don't wanna to go all the way and make racial war bands while your at it? firstly just becuase you say that it's a warband compostion dosnt mean it is the only one, when you have 24 people, you can form a huge group of potential warband compositions which is why you cannot balance for war bands because like I said before their is too much variance, too many factors, I can have 16 magus + 8 healers and call it a warband compositif
but by all means keep insisting that you can and should balance the game to Orvr

Let me know how you can balance for wb v wb without having to redesign the core game mechanics

Furthermore all that stuff you have listed? Have you ever even done it? Not in a 6 man but a full actual "competitive WB"? Or are you just pen and papering?

And chop fasta dosnt counter shatter limbs by the way

[DefinitelyNotWingz]

To settle this once and for all.
We have had this wb vs 6man discussion before.
Here is my summary that Aza agreed with:

In a premade wb vs wb fight it only takes a skilled leader (maybe some assistants), if the others just do what he says, the wb will do just fine.
Whether it is a bombing wb, a moral dropping one (mdps) or even a st melee assist wb. I played in all of those versions on live.
Such a wb can have many casuals, but if they do what the leader says there is not much difference to skilled players that are also doing what the leader says.
So skill mostly doesnt matter here.

In 6on6 you cant allow your grp to have a weak link. Every single member matters and has to be skilled. Therefore 6on6 requires more skill.

source:

Spoiler:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12979&p=142984#p142984

With the current size of the community not even 1 premade wb exists, even if there were 2 in the future, 6on6 balance would have a higher benefit for the community.
Before you answer keep in mind that pug on pug balance will NEVER exist. You simply cant balance for l2p, l2attitude and different amount of players on either side.

[Bretin]

what did this discussion just became?..

regarding the IB buff: completely retarded und would lead into the same double meta cheese with double slayer as we have it for destru right now.

how many people do actually play with a SM and with what arguments do you guys even justify that he is BiS? the IB is in a great spot with both SnB and 2h. he is one of the reasons why order has so many viable comps compared to destru. buffing him would simply be stupid as **** and would turn into a side nerf for wl but it would become a buff to the slayer.

what else do we have here? oh great tesq talking about warband and mrd when the original discussion was a 6 man meta related tank question. some guys should really be excluded in certain discussions. was quite a nice thread. rip

[Bozzax]

With the current size of the community not even 1 premade wb exists, even if there were 2 in the future, 6on6 balance would have a higher benefit for the community.

Lets debunk the myth of balancing on a WB level once and for all. Even if we had 50.000 online balance needs to be done on a 6man level.

A WB in reality is 4 x 6man with a private chat channel nothing more. There are no special powers or abilities that affect 24man or comes from being in a wb.

Proof:
Four 6mans working together without being a wb is equally strong all they need is a guild chat or a TS to replace the /warband channel.


All buffs etc affect party (6man) or target and so on.

EDIT: This also imply the strongest WB possible would prolly be 4 x Enigma with double slayers. Think about it for a while

[Vayra]

With the current size of the community not even 1 premade wb exists, even if there were 2 in the future, 6on6 balance would have a higher benefit for the community.

Lets debunk the myth of balancing on a WB level once and for all. Even if we had 50.000 online balance needs to be done on a 6man level.

A WB in reality is 4 x 6man with a private chat channel nothing more. There are no special powers or abilities that affect 24man or comes from being in a wb.

Proof:
Four 6mans working together without being a wb is equally strong all they need is a guild chat or a TS to replace the /warband channel.


All buffs etc affect party (6man) or target and so on.

EDIT: This also imply the strongest WB possible would prolly be 4 x Enigma with double slayers. Think about it for a while

No. We've already covered this earlier, 6 man compositions do not linearly scale up in effectiveness when you add 3 more groups. Having 24 people allows you to get singleton specs that provide big benefits that you just can't afford in a 6man setup (like rift magus or dps zealot as was mentioned earlier) and as such the 6man balance goes out the window.

I have no idea who Enigma is (I assume some 1337 6man guild from live in the rr100 days?) but the only threat 8 slayers pose in a warband (without warpforged gear) is 8x SL which is plain retarded

[DefinitelyNotWingz]

here we go again.....

[TenTonHammer]

*sigh*

Implying once again that neither rift magus nor dps zelot is used in 1-3-2 bomb groups....