[Implemented] Crimson Death (duration)

[TenTonHammer]

Black Guard needing a buff in utility? It has a strong armor debuff, wounds debuff, crit chance debuff, healing debuff, block/parry debuff, longest knockdown in game, longest knockback in game, strong AP drain, AoE slow, several minor stat buffs/debuffs. And if you go Crimson Death basically a 5% crit chance increase, although you could argue you can get more value out of the 10% if you burst in those 5 seconds time. I'm not against a little buff on Crimson Death, as it is by far the least played tank and in 6v6 scenarios for a reason. But you cannot say the BG lacks utility. The problem is more that a lot of the utility is nullified by mostly the Marauder.

I have to say though that I don't really get the thread, looking at balance from such an isolated point of view, but I guess it's also just a little buff anyway.

Armor, tough and wounds; higher version debuff provided by mara

Super punt; chosen has one with higher uptime and no requirement of high career resource, and its not the longest knock back it is just core and needs no tactic

KD; once again, require near max hate and furthermore is only accessible to the SnB playstye

AoE snare; BO provides better one with lower CD

Minor stat buffs: only Str, Tough, WP; Chosen can consistently buff and debuff the former 2 and BO can buff every stat for your entire group bar wounds with da biggest


A large majority of the things BG brings to the table, other classes bring better versions of

[Shadowgurke]

Black Guard needing a buff in utility? It has a strong armor debuff, wounds debuff,/quote]
I don't want to derail this by saying Mara has these changes but I think it's fair game to consider in a balance discussion, correct? These debuffs are all not needed because Marauders has these in stronger capacity.

crit chance debuff, block/parry debuff

Yep

healing debuff

Choppa also has access to outgoing HD. Also, applying the healdebuff as a tank is often hard and only really works if the enemy healers are not paying attention or you won the fight already. It's a nice tool to have but by no means a gamechanger

longest knockdown in game

with a 20s cooldown on a reactionary KD that only triggers on block. The difference between a 3s KD and a 5s KD is already not that huge. The fact that other KDs are either on demand (IB, Cho, KotBS, (BO)) or have a lot shorter CD (IB that also happens to trigger on parry) makes the knockdown pale in comparison. Yes it sounds nice to have that LONGEST KD IN GAME but it has a long cooldown, it's neither on demand nor as easy to trigger as IB and it scales with Hatred meaning it also needs setup time.

Speaking of which, the same holds true for the Knockback. LONGEST PUNT IN GAME. But also twice the cooldown of every other punt in the game. That alone makes the punt a lot worse in practice. Add to that that it does zero knockback below 30 hatred and only really shines at 90 hatred. Again, setup time, long cooldown. See the issue here?

Aoe Slow
That just happens to be the last ability in a tree that people otherwise would not even consider. Making you waste a lot of points for an ability that BOs can get a lot easier. Extra points for AoE snare being easily removed with WP groupcleanse conpared to BO, KotBS and IB aoe snare being uncleanseable by groupcleanse.

[noisestorm]

I still dont know why you guys are even complaing about a 5 second increase in Crimson Deaths cd, when the skill nonetheless will be buffed in the first place. But in the end Aza will decide anyways judging from the posts coming so far. All i am saying is a 5 sec increase would be justified, but whatever

Because there is no reasons to, your basic argument was that it would improve the BG damage too much, many argued that this is no way a compensation for all the things you lose.

It seems like since they got a buff, you need to take something back from them, in the case of your suggestion a cd increase would make it a worse skill in situations where it gets defended.

All we are saying is that a 100% uptime in a skill that requires 2h is fair, skills that require 2h should be strong when it comes to tank archetypes. Specially when you compare it to Cave in.

Well i have to admit that if it gets defended that indeed will be a bigger backdraw for the BG. My personal problem is just that i dont want to see even more damage in this game. It will become worse with higher equip and we all will feel it. Nonetheless i would also say ppl shouldnt appeal to Kotbs tactics since those will definitely see some nerf in the future as well if you ask me. But since we are in a testing environment in the first place, i shouldnt really object to a buff for it for now.

On the other hand Zumos already pointed out that the weakness of BG actually comes from the OPness of the mara debuffs. Maybe its not even needed to buff/change anything at all for now

[Bretin]

Spoiler:

@Mara: I am talking about the bonus/backdraw provided by it. 20% outgoing greatly outshines the 10% incoming malus, thats all to it.

It doesn't outshine the malus considering the crit options order has e.g. DT and EA (you seem to ignore that part of my post). the trade of FoF is 20% crit for 30% chance to be crit. adding a CD specced BG would bump the marauder to 30% extra chance to crit with both FoF and CD up while order would also have 30% chance to crit him with only one Kotbs. The trade is 1:1 and the requirements are pretty much equal.

Sure 10% is 10%, but the tactic itself is ridiculously strong nonetheless.

there are a lot of strong tactics in the game, bullseye is the exact mirror of FoF for example.

Also its not like destro has no Init debuffs available, so no need to mention SM.

you mentioned the Marauder, he doesn't have to fight against a BO hence why i mentioned the SM (logical sense), again you seem to be a bit salty and biased. The SM is a part of the crit possibilities of order and those were a part of your argument. No need to mention marauder in first place and act like a smartass when you again don't understand my posting.

You calling playing with a sorc a hurrdurr argument

should've stopped here. again you took my post too serious, skipped through it, ignored what i typed and spilled the salt. I said if you play with a sorc you will do that most likely in a 1/3/2. In that setup you will NOT run a offensive BG as for solo tanking. And exactly this is what we are talking about the offensive BG. It's an hurrdurr argument to see him grouped as a solo tank with 3 dps.

Also people will sometimes just not play with SWs either if they dont want to. Playing with a SW provides a lot of backdraws which i personally dont justify taking in, just because of a 15% crit buff for the party. I rather stick and go with a melee setup before playing with an SW, hence my post.

so you can argue with the sorc buffs but not with the SW while you rate both to be crap? besides that 1/3/2 is viable just not with a BG solo tanking it and we are still here to discuss BG or am i wrong?

Sure a 2h BG+Sorc setup is crap and i am aware of that - i wasnt really thinking in terms of bg+sorc there, but rather that a crit increase as a whole is just very strong for destro as a realm.

a crit increase on a 2h tank which has no place in largescale fights, doesn't have any impact to the realm balance. in smallscale it's a quality of life change and a BG in general (whether 2h or SnB) won't be able to compete with chosen/bo.

Also nice, but not needed that you again show that Mara just outshines Choppas and WEs by lightyears, as well as BO does for BG, but like i said before, we-know-that-bg-needs-other-buffs-as-well. Those buffs need to be viable for SnB as well as 2h though, so i see no reason why you complain here about on a topic regarding a 2h skill. If we later on have other buffs on the BG as well and still have an - in my opinion - overbuffed CrimsonDeath you will most likely see some adjustments on other places where ppl gonna cry again. Keep that in mind.

i don't complain, you are the one complaining like a 12 yo when you can't even come up with one argument to tell us why this "buff" wouldn't be justified. I guess you completely ignore the fact that the BG does not only have to give up KD when going 2h if he doesn't want to explode. The "overbuffed Crimson Death" will never ever impact the realm balance and 2h BG will never be viable unless the trees are getting changed.

Also i absolutely disregard ANY of your opinions about WE, since you completely lost all credibility on that class in my eyes, when you called it unplayable and useless aftewr the witchbrew _fix_ and switched back to your marauder because of it. I played my WE back on live for a very long time and always had frenzied mayhem slotted. you calling it gimped provides absolutely nothing, it is a very strong tactic and especially as a WE where you dont need your finishers to procc your kisses you can often keep an high amount of stacks available.

Well the more you type the higher the amount of salt becomes. I'm sure we have a lot of super acknowledged veterans within this community but the opinion of an AW spamming WE who never played very successful is as much worth as the word of a cleave spamming chosen, hence why i think we both disregard our opinions quite equal.

You really would use a 660(or rather 330) Armor tactic over a 25% crit damage one? Sounds like a horrible misconception on what this class is supposed to do to me. I can agree that the attackspeed one is extremely strong, but we are to compare the crit damage ones. And the "Situational" 0-90% is somewhat bad compared to a static 25% that you can keep even if your HP are topped off. Neither do you as a slayer, nor do your healers want to see your HP anywhere below 50% let alone being able to constantly keep it at that value to make your tactic even work.

Epic, just epic. You have srsly no idea about how to play mdps in this game and how viable which tactics/classes are. it's hilarious and whether am i interessted in derailing any further or starting a bigger flamewar. hence why i'll ignore any of your upcoming posts. you got proven wrong, had no arguments, ignored all facts possible, went personal and salty during this whole thread. all in all a perfect representation for a balance mod, thumbs up.

All i am saying is a 5 sec increase would be justified, but whatever

justified with no argument.

Edit by Penril - Omnislashing.

[Eathisword]

I think making CD 10 sec is a good move. 5 sec is not viable that much in group play. If we leave organised 6v6 and enter grouped RvR, a 5sec debuff is nearly impossible to coordinate with your group for good use. Any kind of CC, delay, taunt, snare, can slow your Mdps a tad bit and your CD is wasted. 10s is already not that much.

Making CD undefendable is a different story. 3 points against such an idea.
1- Main point is that it is a big damage dealer/good finisher and it is AoE (it can crit for 1k+). Now, a good part of Mdps survivability in group play is Confusing movements, when **** hits the fan, your tank gets punted... that's your defense. If CD ignores parry check/block check, it becomes an easy counter to a morale defense : it should not. Heck in scenario play, it could even kill an untintended Mdps with M1 up waiting for a heal. Or a tank with M2 for that matter.

2- 2H tank go 2H either for the looks (my case :p) or to do damage. Reducing the damage of BG's hardest hitting ability would kinda go against the purpose of going 2H, since BG looks cooler as SnB anyway...

3- Class/spec defining ability needs not to be undefendable. 2H IB for example are mostly good because of Cave-in... No one would want THAT to be undefendable. Melee dok are good because of rend soul... undefendable ? Thunderous Blow, cutting claw : undefendable ? I understand that knight's stuff is passive... it probably shouldn't be. It is a better idea in my mind to not balance the game around knights... They are OP. Everyone agrees. Balancing around them just makes it harder to propose to tone them down later down the road.

[zumos2]

Armor, tough and wounds; higher version debuff provided by mara

Super punt; chosen has one with higher uptime and no requirement of high career resource, and its not the longest knock back it is just core and needs no tactic

KD; once again, require near max hate and furthermore is only accessible to the SnB playstye

AoE snare; BO provides better one with lower CD

Minor stat buffs: only Str, Tough, WP; Chosen can consistently buff and debuff the former 2 and BO can buff every stat for your entire group bar wounds with da biggest


A large majority of the things BG brings to the table, other classes bring better versions of

Which is why I said the main problem of BG is the Mara being so strong. Also BG punt is better than chosen, you will have full hate when playing the SnB build, so the knock down is insanely strong. AoE snare does cost BO a tactic slot and if you want to have full uptime you have to spam that as you second stance, so it's not that great either. The minor stat buffs don't matter too much, and yes chosen can give them, BO is a bit unreliable keeping them all up. But for the mara, I got nothing to say

[noisestorm]

All i am saying is a 5 sec increase would be justified, but whatever

Spoiler:

justified with no argument.

No need to answer the other stuff above, since in my eyes its worthless stuff anyways. But i guess i can do the same: dont you guys have to say why it should be buffed? Thats not shifting the burden of proof here, but rather justiying a change from how it currently is in the first place. The real problem, that Zumos pointed at is that the class is overshadowed by something else (marauder obviously) and therefore seems weak, while it in fact not really is. That the 2h tree is somewhat lacking is also known and therefore i can see it needing to be buffed, but that same buff could also just come from changing Blade of Ruin. Its noway any salt or the likes speaking from me, but if in the (near) future certain classes get nerfed (Mara/Kotbs) and BG will become "really" viable therefore, the class will not need any buffs in the first place. So my opinion would just be like stated before: if they want to get a change on CD duration then Yes, they have to give something in return for it.

[zumos2]

Black Guard needing a buff in utility? It has a strong armor debuff, wounds debuff,/quote]
I don't want to derail this by saying Mara has these changes but I think it's fair game to consider in a balance discussion, correct? These debuffs are all not needed because Marauders has these in stronger capacity.

crit chance debuff, block/parry debuff

Yep

healing debuff

Choppa also has access to outgoing HD. Also, applying the healdebuff as a tank is often hard and only really works if the enemy healers are not paying attention or you won the fight already. It's a nice tool to have but by no means a gamechanger

longest knockdown in game

with a 20s cooldown on a reactionary KD that only triggers on block. The difference between a 3s KD and a 5s KD is already not that huge. The fact that other KDs are either on demand (IB, Cho, KotBS, (BO)) or have a lot shorter CD (IB that also happens to trigger on parry) makes the knockdown pale in comparison. Yes it sounds nice to have that LONGEST KD IN GAME but it has a long cooldown, it's neither on demand nor as easy to trigger as IB and it scales with Hatred meaning it also needs setup time.

Speaking of which, the same holds true for the Knockback. LONGEST PUNT IN GAME. But also twice the cooldown of every other punt in the game. That alone makes the punt a lot worse in practice. Add to that that it does zero knockback below 30 hatred and only really shines at 90 hatred. Again, setup time, long cooldown. See the issue here?

Aoe Slow
That just happens to be the last ability in a tree that people otherwise would not even consider. Making you waste a lot of points for an ability that BOs can get a lot easier. Extra points for AoE snare being easily removed with WP groupcleanse conpared to BO, KotBS and IB aoe snare being uncleanseable by groupcleanse.

First of all, the only I was trying to make that the BG does have a lot of utility. Obviously it doesn't have the best in every regard. But the outgoing healing debuff from choppa isn't even close as good as the BG one. (Requires Greatweapon, 30s cd versus 0 cd). In terms of the knockback/knockdown: Getting hate and blocking is no problem at all for the BG. You will have full hatred in a matter of seconds and you will easily have a block every couple of seconds from guard damage. The cooldown is a fair point, but as you mainly want to knock tanks away out of guard range, 15 seconds would be required to knock them away on cooldown considering the immunity. So 20 seconds isn't the worst IMO. The AoE slow isn't too good, but neither is that of the BO as it requires a tactic and having to spam that as your gud plan. I think we can both agree that the Mara does nullify most of the BG utility.

[Bretin]

The real problem, that Zumos pointed at is that the class is overshadowed by something else (marauder obviously) and therefore seems weak, while it in fact not really is.

The "real" problem is not the marauder even though you have to mention him in any of your posts within this thread. Armor debuff can be provided by BO, Wounds debuff by CH. Those are the classes the BG has to compete with. Not the marauder. Both tanks provide much more utility including the same things a BG does (in way better versions) - outgoing HD excluded - with an essential difference: the morale on block tactic. /discuss, period. No doubt that marauder has one thing too much - the ic healdebuff - but that's a whole different archetype and not a part of this discussion so i suggest (again), you stay within the archetype the BG belongs to. As for clarification without the intention of derailing: If there are classes suffering from the overloaded marauder kit their names are: Choppa, WE & MDoK. Remove the ic hd and one part of the destru cheese meta is solved. 2 problems remaining one is the BG who lacks something unique compared to Ch/BO. He doesn't provide anything CH/BO couldn't. To make him viable we need more than just a 5s increase on CD. As i said for me it's a quality of life change and it will have no impact to any part of the PvP.

[peterthepan3]

. So my opinion would just be like stated before: if they want to get a change on CD duration then Yes, they have to give something in return for it.

In the case of the 2h BG: that's like giving a starving dog a piece of meat, and then cutting off its tail. The 2h BG is probably the squishiest/most mehhhh of all 2h tanks and doesn't offer anything other than CD: if it is going to have CD buffed (and this buff - as aza said - is more a QoL thing) then it should have it buffed without having to suffer some loss as a consequence. Amazes me how overpowered classes like the KOTBS are, and yet when a trivial buff is being discussed for one of the weaker tanks people seem to ignore the bigger picture