[Implemented] Crimson Death (duration)

[TenTonHammer]

While it is true that BG is designed to be a healer killer, a good healer can also effectively kite the BG

Now correct me if I'm wrong here becuase I am not a big 6v6 person

But in 6v6 with it's high TTK, it's all about focussing a target a bursting it down, a Bg dost have the liberty of trying to run around the back lines trying to chase an rp around out of guard range of your own mdps (to which btw the defensive capabilities of your own group is already reduced due to not as effective guard) and will more than likely get you CC'd by all the cc tools on order and as we've discussed, terrible embrace has counter play

I still contended that if we can get 100% uptime and undefendable then we can reduce the dmg

[roadkillrobin]

10 secs. But doesn't know if it's enough tbh. What about removing sheild requirement and add parry check on the knockdown aswell? A Malice specced BG is gonna struggle a bit to be on full Hate anyway.

[noisestorm]

@Tenton
Reducing its damage would be again a wrong approach to it. The BG is in dire need of some spells that give him the desired burst and lowering CDs damage would just further gimp the class. The overall damage needs to be lowered through a longer Cooldown and not through a dmg nerf. The uptime also should never be 100%, but a 5 second window without crit-debuff seems absolutely fair to me.
I am also not sure if making it undefendable is a good idea, because you could potentially use it as a finisher on other squishies that are on low HP and just have thrown some defensive morale, which goes against the line of what the BG should do.

Also _again_again_ this is a group play and noone ever mentioned a BG hitting alone on any Healers. The argument with CC or being kited is redundant,because it basically would hit every class in game if you put it in the right situation. Nonetheless if you run with a BG in your group you have to somewhat adjust your gameplay to what and how you focus fire with your group together. And as mentioned before the extra DPS an undetauntable 2h BG can bring to your assist train is not to be underestimated.


PS: that the BG as a whole may need a few more tweaks - be it blade of ruin or whatever - is not off the table, so keep that in mind. theres no need to overbuff this one particular skill right now and certainly no need to ask for buffs/changes on other skills!

[Azarael]

10 secs. But doesn't know if it's enough tbh. What about removing sheild requirement and add parry check on the knockdown aswell? A Malice specced BG is gonna struggle a bit to be on full Hate anyway.

We do not have the power to do anything like this yet, which is part of the reason I'm holding control over which topics can be made in the balance forum. The thread is not a general discussion regarding other potential changes to BG, and the point that this is a QoL fix and forms only part of what is necessary for BG in the future is well noted.

[Toldavf]

For all those arguing from a solo healer killer perspective please remember. The crit bonus only applies to other members of the black guards group, he does not in any way benefit from additional crit by using it. (Edit from Noise: This is wrong. CD is a normal crit chance debuff on the target that affects everybody, but if you properly wouldve read my post before it was already stated by me.)

As for a longer CD I would argue against it on the grounds that order have the same debuff with 100% up time and ready access to CD increasers within their meta.

[sanii]

a Bg does have the liberty of trying to run around the back lines trying to chase an rp around out of guard range of your own mdps

And precisely this is not the case , while outgoing healdebuff is quite strong it is situational at best in a 6v6 and will only make the other team time their dmg+moral dump when the BG starts chasing the other healers and they can knock away the one tank left. Also you need to take time covering your healdebuff and you waste pressure on the actual focus target.

while TTK is high , burst with morals+knockbacks is still high enough to discourage it being used like that (Same goes for Ironbreaker )

The crit bonus only applies to other members of the black guards group, he does not in any way benefit from additional crit by using it.

Unless i am mistaken the bonus makes a target more likely to be crit in general just like encouraged aim so it should 100% work for the BG aswell.


On topic: I do not mind changing crimson death to 10s with same CD, just QoL change from my perspective aswell that won't affect the general balance too much.

[peterthepan3]

For all those arguing from a solo healer killer perspective please remember. The crit bonus only applies to other members of the black guards group, he does not in any way benefit from additional crit by using it. (Edit from Noise: This is wrong. CD is a normal crit chance debuff on the target that affects everybody, but if you properly wouldve read my post before it was already stated by me.)

As for a longer CD I would argue against it on the grounds that order have the same debuff with 100% up time and ready access to CD increasers within their meta.

Good points.
The BG itself is a hard tank to play well and even then it is outdone by the KOTBS/Chosen: going 2h exacerbates their predicament even more. As long as the ability can't have 100% uptime then I feel there is no valid counterargument to implementing these proposed CD changes.

[noisestorm]

For all those arguing from a solo healer killer perspective please remember. The crit bonus only applies to other members of the black guards group, he does not in any way benefit from additional crit by using it. (Edit from Noise: This is wrong. CD is a normal crit chance debuff on the target that affects everybody, but if you properly wouldve read my post before it was already stated by me.)

As for a longer CD I would argue against it on the grounds that order have the same debuff with 100% up time and ready access to CD increasers within their meta.

Good points.
The BG itself is a hard tank to play well and even then it is outdone by the KOTBS/Chosen: going 2h exacerbates their predicament even more. As long as the ability can't have 100% uptime then I feel there is no valid counterargument to implementing these proposed CD changes.

Also you guys who always point towards Kotbs skills like DT and EA seem to blatantly ignore the fact that destro DPS themselves have easier access to bonus crit or extra damage compared to order ones. Be it 20% for marauder (the 10% debuff on the mara himself is ridiculious and not even worth being mentioned), 15% for WE (stackable yes, but nonetheless relatively high uptime), 50% WE morale or the 10% extra dmg from Sorc (which makes extra crit also a lot more valuable for overall damage).

Not to forget that Choppa also has a crit damage tactic he can actually use compared to Slayer.

PS: please dont come with Leading Shots as its sh*t..

[Valfaros]

All for it, but only if the CD of it gets at least up to 15 seconds minimum. One should not forget that this spell is the hardest hitting tool of a BG as well and a buff to its utility definitely deserves a small nerf on the overall dmg output imo.

Okay some things
BG 2h is already not really viable
Crimson Death is one of the strongest hitting abilitys he has
You want to nerv the CD by 50% while then
only buffing the uptime of the debuff by 30%
Looks like a nerv to me which I can't get he already isn't viable why would you do that...
It is still a buff to the grp but depending on the setup you only have 1 (to 2 at max while risking to get too squishy) other dd which profits from it in a 6v6 match.

No all for the 100% uptime only fair to a already weak viable build. Nobody will on the other side will even notice that something changed.
Undefendable well would be nice to have a undefendable crit buff on destro I would be up to it as long only the debuff is and not the dmg because that would be to strong but nomater what you do don't rise the cd of it...

[Toldavf]

(Edit from Noise: This is wrong. CD is a normal crit chance debuff on the target that affects everybody, but if you properly wouldve read my post before it was already stated by me.)

Then I would say it is not implemented correctly. The tool tip says others, implying not the black guard.

As for the slayer chopper thing I believe im correct in saying the slayer still has more single target dps. So that crit tactic argument really has no bearing here.