[Engineer] The Workshop (builds, guides, and discussion)

[Eathisword]

I agree that inc Heal debuff is key.

I would propose for both Engie and Magus that it is mirrored on the Mara. Make it a 25% inc heal debuff on 1 of the core dots, with a tactic in Rifleman that pops it to 50%.

That way, Tinker and Grenadier spec gets something special to bring in an AoE group for xtra pressure. And Rifleman gets the cake for ST burst premade.

[Karast]

That's interesting; i actually have been playing with an IB and WL on order. Yeah, their armor debuffs are awesome for our damage, but whenever we faced a semi-decent destro group, we all came to the same conclussion:

We. Need. An. Inc. Heal. Debuff. In. This. Group.

Without an Inc. heal debuff, it is incredibly hard to kill someone who has tanks and healers. The setup you mentioned has, at best, outgoing heal debuff from the IB (i don't know many WL's that spec Thin the Herd). So, let's recap:

IB
WL
Engi
Heals x2

That leaves 1 spot for someone with an inc. heal-debuff. Tanks don't have one, and running 2 mdps with only 1 tank can be risky. So it gotta be a DPS AM or a rDPS. And since BW inc heal-debuff sucks, then it is between DPS AM and SW. Now, SW has pretty amazing synergy with WL so i would go with that class. We end with a IB/WL/SW/Engi/heals group. At this point, you gotta ask yourself: What does an Engi bring to this setup over a BW or a DPS AM? Probly not much, tbh.

WL + Engie is not an optimal setup since there are better options out there (all replacing the engie). However, if the Engie had an inc heal-debuff, then this setup would be perfectly fine and that last spot could be filled with pretty much anything. In other words, the lack of a heal debuff heavily limits group setups for an Engie/Magus. Giving them one would go a long way in making those classes more desirable.

This is not a premade focused build more for small group roaming.

But let me ask you this,

If engi did have an incoming heal debuff, would you really take it over another dps you mentioned?

Adding a heal debuff helps, but it doesn't address the other core issues. The heal debuff is the icing on the cake, but the cake is important too. SW is much more mobile, has better finishers, and the ranged knock down. BW has simply much better damage, both AoE and ST, and are not reliant on a morale. WL / WH have much better burst dps, and slayers are simply a beast. Even dps AM will give a dot engi a run for their money because they have much better dots.

If I were to put it another way. A lot of BW don't run the heal debuff, as do some slayers if they go giant slayer. They bring heavy dps. If engi brought heavy dps that would also earn them a spot.

I also question if giving everyone an incoming heal debuff is the right thing to do. If double heal debuffs are mandatory to kill people, isn't that a balance problem with healing? Just like with skills like with trivial blows. DPs and crit damage was a problem so everyone has to spec and use this to counter it.

Maybe what I am getting at are heal debuffs a symptom of a greater problem?

[Karast]

I agree that inc Heal debuff is key.

I would propose for both Engie and Magus that it is mirrored on the Mara. Make it a 25% inc heal debuff on 1 of the core dots, with a tactic in Rifleman that pops it to 50%.

That way, Tinker and Grenadier spec gets something special to bring in an AoE group for xtra pressure. And Rifleman gets the cake for ST burst premade.

I think it would work better as an ability like on slayer. If you make a tactic, its a must slot tactic, and we already have enough of those. Something in the end tree for rifle would make the most sense since PS is a junk ability.

[Eathisword]

I agree that inc Heal debuff is key.

I would propose for both Engie and Magus that it is mirrored on the Mara. Make it a 25% inc heal debuff on 1 of the core dots, with a tactic in Rifleman that pops it to 50%.

That way, Tinker and Grenadier spec gets something special to bring in an AoE group for xtra pressure. And Rifleman gets the cake for ST burst premade.

I think it would work better as an ability like on slayer. If you make a tactic, its a must slot tactic, and we already have enough of those. Something in the end tree for rifle would make the most sense since PS is a junk ability.

It is junk yes. But making Engie's only heal debuff the 13 points ability in Rifleman makes it a must spec. I prefer a must slot tactic for Rifleman, while Tinker and Grenadier also get better with a small core Heal debuff.

Cause you know... engie is one of the only classes that have 3 playable specs... With a Heal debuff high in Rifleman... it would become cookie cutter like all the other ones.

[Nameless]

all grenadier's skils with casting time should be allowed to be cast on move. That way you would do pretty good grenadier/tinkerer kitting builds, not to mention that some of the important cc is at grenadier so double win.

To add aditional value into bringing engi into group i would add some unique aura effect around the turret. Best way would be if that is some defence oriented aura

ps engies do bring "hard" dps the problem is to achieve that you need to be pretty immobile which at most cases translate as free kill

[Penril]

Spoiler:

This is not a premade focused build more for small group roaming.

But let me ask you this,

If engi did have an incoming heal debuff, would you really take it over another dps you mentioned?

Adding a heal debuff helps, but it doesn't address the other core issues. The heal debuff is the icing on the cake, but the cake is important too. SW is much more mobile, has better finishers, and the ranged knock down. BW has simply much better damage, both AoE and ST, and are not reliant on a morale. WL / WH have much better burst dps, and slayers are simply a beast. Even dps AM will give a dot engi a run for their money because they have much better dots.

If I were to put it another way. A lot of BW don't run the heal debuff, as do some slayers if they go giant slayer. They bring heavy dps. If engi brought heavy dps that would also earn them a spot.

I also question if giving everyone an incoming heal debuff is the right thing to do. If double heal debuffs are mandatory to kill people, isn't that a balance problem with healing? Just like with skills like with trivial blows. DPs and crit damage was a problem so everyone has to spec and use this to counter it.

Maybe what I am getting at are heal debuffs a symptom of a greater problem?

Heal debuffs aren't 100% mandatory to kill someone who has tanks and heals. CC is another option too although more difficult to pull off due to immunities and PUGs. For example, a well-placed mine can stagger enemy healers for 5 seconds which should be more than enough for your group to kill someone. But then a Slayer breaks your stagger immediately. Or worse: you break it yourself. For example, when a Marauder pulls me, i sometimes use Land mine to stagger them (and it has saved me a few times). But if i was using my AoE dots first? I will break that stagger immediately.

Anyway, to answer your question. If engie had a heal debuff, would i take it over the other classes i mentioned? Definitely. Not because that would fix all the problems, but because i enjoy the Engie and at least, this way, my group wouldn't be asking me constantly to log my SW. Of course, they would still need a few more fixes on top of this.

I don't think increasing their damage to BW/Slayer level is a good idea.

Another option would be reworking some of their CC to cover up for the lack of a heal debuff. For example, i think Concussive mine is a really strong tactic but unfortunately as we all know, we don't have room for it. Maybe making CM be a core part of Land Mine? So you could stagger a healer and even if it breaks immediately he would still be disoriented for a few seconds. This would give your group a window of opportunity to kill something, even without a heal debuff. Then you would change CM to something else (maybe it makes Land mine a AoE KD isntead of stagger). Or maybe changing Strafing run into a AoE KD instead of AoE punt? Stuff like that that gives you hard AoE CC to cover up for the lack of h-debuff.

Spoiler:

I think it would work better as an ability like on slayer. If you make a tactic, its a must slot tactic, and we already have enough of those. Something in the end tree for rifle would make the most sense since PS is a junk ability.

Agreed 100%. If they ever get a h-debuff, it should be a speccable SKILL and not a tactic. Phosphorous Shells, Sticky Bomb, Seed of Chaos (Magus) are the ones i would consider.

[bloodi]

Maybe its just me but if i were to add things, it would be to one of the turrets.

A heal debuff on an engie on demand may be too much but a heal debuff on one of your turrets, probably the close range one may have the enough risk/reward ratio to be interesting.

[Penril]

Maybe its just me but if i were to add things, it would be to one of the turrets.

A heal debuff on an engie on demand may be too much but a heal debuff on one of your turrets, probably the close range one may have the enough risk/reward ratio to be interesting.

Yeah i thought about the range too, which is why i though Sticky Bomb/Seed of Chaos would be good choices. Their range is 65ft which is the same as Shadow Sting/Rotten Arrer. All these 4 classes (eng/mag/sw/sh) can increase it's range with a tactic but SW and SH do it by 50% while Eng/Mag is only 25%. So, kinda balanced there.

Having their h-debuff at 6 points would let them use different specs and not be tied to just one tree (if, for example, it was at 14 points).

Also, both Sticky Bomb/Seed of Chaos have a 10 sec CD, while SW/SH heal debuffs are spammable (as long as their targets are ailing). Finally, SH cant be cleansed by WP (stronger than Magus which can't be cleansed by RP) and SW cant be cleansed by Zeal (stronger than Engie who cant be cleansed by Shaman). Overall, i think a h-debuff for Engie/Magus on Sticky bomb/Seed of Chaos wouldn't be too much, and it would significantly buff those near-useless skills.

[bloodi]

My problem with adding a healdebuff on Sticky bomb is that it makes it mandatory.

There would be very few reasons to not pick it and would be impossible to get for things like Keg/snipe and so on.

If its on the turret, everyone gets it but its only useful for people very close to your turret, limiting its usefulness for say, a rifleman spec that doesnt want to be in melee range.

I would rather see the current engi specs be viable with a little cherry on top than having to reorganize everything because a heal debuff is a must on most groups.

[Sigimund]

A heal debuff would fit well in the pressure tree (Grenadier).

Would it be worth going for a more burst oriented approach in rifle? Eg a tactic that turns focused fire into a finisher (like a channeled finish em off).

If you were going to try to help the class via turret effects what would they be? Armor debuff on gun turret, heal debuff on bombard and snare on flamethrower?