WB vs 6v6.

[Penril]

I also want it to be balanced around both. But as i pointed out:

Balancing all classes around a 6-man = all classes will be balanced for 24-man
Balancing all classes around a 24-man =/= all classes will be balanced for a 6-man

Therefore, imho, it makes sense to first balance around a 6-man. Do that, and 12, 18, 24, 48-man groups will also be balanced. If i am wrong on this, please explain me why because i don't see it.

Yes, AoE/ranged classes have some issues in a 6-man, and these are gone when they play in a WB. But ideally, every class should have a spot in a 6-man. If this is true, then balance should start from 6+. If this is incorrect though, then don't mind me.

[bloodi]

Well we kinda had a discussion about this earlier let me link it http://www.returnofreckoning.com/forum/ ... 10#p133646

And quote the relevant part

Well Annaise said it much better than me in another thread, let me quote:

The game was mostly likely balanced around 12v12 (12v12 scens were the only pvp for much of the game's development), but it works at many other scales as well.

For thoe people who believe that the game should be balanced around 6v6, I'm guessing that you are advocating that all ranged dps should have their dps increased by 50%. Because that is what it is going to take to bring rdps up to standard with mdps in a 6v6 environment. Of course, it will make rdps massively overpowered in other contexts, but 6v6 is the standard, right?

Link to it: http://www.returnofreckoning.com/forum/ ... ed#p124717

So its an ardous task everywhere, you gotta modify a lot for 6 man and you gotta modify a lot for 24 man, there is no easy way here.

[peterthepan3]

[peterthepan3]

on a serious note - why would the game be balanced around 12 v 12? a half-full WB?
RDPS not being effective in 6v6 is a L2P issue to some extent, but melee do dominate it endgame. however WBs are dominated by BW/KOTBS/WP so i dont understand what the point is?

[DefinitelyNotWingz]

The game was mostly likely balanced around 12v12 (12v12 scens were the only pvp for much of the game's development), but it works at many other scales as well.

For thoe people who believe that the game should be balanced around 6v6, I'm guessing that you are advocating that all ranged dps should have their dps increased by 50%. Because that is what it is going to take to bring rdps up to standard with mdps in a 6v6 environment. Of course, it will make rdps massively overpowered in other contexts, but 6v6 is the standard, right?

And Annaise was wrong. A dmg increase for ranged dps is not necessary at all. CCM proves this. In order to make ranged work in 6on6 you have to play with 3 dps (1-3-2 setup) to maintain a certain amount of pressure.

[Dabbart]

I see nothing stupid or wrong with people wanting the game to be balanced around their prefered playstyle. Thats just human nature. I drive to work, so I want the Highways to be specc'd for drivers, not for Bicycles or Busses. I understand alot of people utilize other methods of getting to work, but balancing the system to help them isn't something I will argue for. Why? Cause it negatively impacts me alot of the time. yes, a strange analogy to use, but first one that popped into my head.

My personal thoughts, is that 6v6 and 12v12 should be the systems "used" for balancing. Trying to balance 24v24 is ludicrous imo, as there are simply too many systems and strategies that can be utilized. Balancing 24v24 runs the risk of seriously harming the smaller group meta. Whereas balancing towards 6v6 and 12v12 gives the basis of equality. Not to mention you are then given an oppertunity to base your balancing on a system that actually requires "even" fights number wise, since SCs become the kinda sorta go-to. Since at least in SCs the game enforced a fair number fight. Group comp is up to those queueing. But again, the SC at least tries to assist in that.

And honestly, zerg v zerg has no balance. Once you get a full WB involved on either side, you rarely get "balanced" fights in any sort. One side will almost always have a massive advantage. How many PUG WBs run around with only a few healers?

Also, Penril has cracked me the **** up in this thread... But I should point out that other than footpatrol's, shall we say, out of standard thoughts on balance and group composition, I haven't really seen much largish scale systems or strategies developed. Whereas the smaller groups have quite a few discussions sets for builds and idea's.

Why is this? Well, if you think about it, it might be that those involved in smaller group fights tend to actually get fights. Running around with 24+ people, how often are you engaged in a prolonged fight that isn't keep/BO farming? How often in a 24+ do you have to engage against enemy that severly outnumbers you? Follow up, how often are you successful? Successful not in that you held the zerg at the keep, but that you could fight em on openish ground and win?

TLDR; Imo, Balancing to WBs would be a mistake for a lot of reasons. Listening solely to 6mans or smaller would be the same, for an entirely different set of reasons. One should be conscious of how the changes affect all play styles, but imo the 6v6 and 12v12 of SCs are the "best" system to utilize for balancing.

[incredible]

And Annaise was wrong. A dmg increase for ranged dps is not necessary at all. CCM proves this. In order to make ranged work in 6on6 you have to play with 3 dps (1-3-2 setup) to maintain a certain amount of pressure.

link to video of ccm beating your melee train premade using ranged dps pls?

[DefinitelyNotWingz]

And Annaise was wrong. A dmg increase for ranged dps is not necessary at all. CCM proves this. In order to make ranged work in 6on6 you have to play with 3 dps (1-3-2 setup) to maintain a certain amount of pressure.

link to video of ccm beating your melee train premade using ranged dps pls?

How many video of a meleetrain beating our meleetrain do we have? 1? out of? 20?

Check their yt channel, but I doubt you are interested in sth else but trolling.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5Iadt ... 4G73co2NMw

[dontcomplainx]

Click here to watch on YouTube

Found this vid, they played against a very well-known guild.

[incredible]

How many video of a meleetrain beating our meleetrain do we have? 1? out of? 20?

Check their yt channel, but I doubt you are interested in sth else but trolling.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5Iadt ... 4G73co2NMw

plenty of melee beating you. Fusion beating your double slayer group. Kappapride beating your we/mara group. melee v melee is very even.

What happened when you used range? Oh yeah - fusion beating it.

Ranged dps in an equal setup of 6v6 players is not viable. Period. You would not even entertain the notion of using it vs. deep and dry or kappa pride's a-team melee train.

Cherry picking some ranged comps beating less than equal premades is laughable. Is that how you plan to balance. Is this how you "prove" things? what a joke.