Fixing boring unbalanced scenarios

[Jaycub]

AAO would be more analogous to an underdog team receiving more BCS points for beating a greater ranked team, AAO doesn't make it any easier or harder to defeat someone. Which is why I personally have a problem with that kind of system that is going to influence the outcome of a match via buffs to one sides stats etc...

Maybe increased rewards, like an AAO for scenarios for teams that are down X points might influence them to fight harder even if a win is impossible, just scoring a couple kills could result in decent RR while at the same time encouraging them to at least fight back.

[saupreusse]

i think the biggest problem is not that the teams are unbalanced in skill.
people leaving a scenario after being pushed back one time without being punished is really annoying.
a lot of ppl just say no to every scenario they get wiped in the first two minutes.
Also the timer in the beginning should be a bit longer so it wont happen so often, that one side has much more players in the beginning than the other side.
A lot of these early frustrating pushes are caused by unblanced numbers of players.

This is backwards thinking. The quitting is the symptom not 'the problem'. If the problem first. Lack of balance is the problem. Allow for a quick end to the scenario when unbalanced.

in a logical order it would be:
too short timer > unbalanced teams in numbers > one side can do an early wipe > the other side is pushed back > a lot of ppl leave > the rest getting spawn raped > the ppl who left dont get punished and do it again and again and again...

Maybe AAO in sc would be a possibility. so that the side with the lower number of players gets an AAO buff like in ORVR.
(but that would only cure the symptoms, not the cause)

[Razid1987]

So there have been some good suggestion and the usual QQ to any changes as most people fear change. So assuming every enemy team is full of angels who take all the objectives and then wait peacefully while you sit in spawn and never EVER cap maybe 1 objective and just farm their gears of war/kill quests (course that never happens) even still there could be some streamline improvements.

And by "good suggestion" you of course mean something that is subjective, and therefore seen as a bad suggestion by some people, because it would help the bad players just because they cry the loudest.
And by "the usual QQ" and "fear change" you mean, the fact that people disagree with that specific, and again subjective, suggestion, because it's seems bad, from their perspective.

It has nothing to do with "fearing change". It seems to me that the only people who is indeed "fearing change" are the people who cry for changes such as this, because they refuse to change their behavior, tactics or methods. Instead they demand to get everything handed on a silver platter. They demand to get the game changed, because they can't adapt.

So sometimes a very close match can be 300 to 0 at one point, a quick swing of momentum and boom the other team gets going strong again. I think there could be a multiplier for score for every x number of a team in the spawn area for more than 10 seconds. So if you are getting spawn camped, and they decide to be jerks, just let that multiplier build up, and the game finishes quickly.

And most of the time, people just give up and go afk, because they can't be bothered to even try.

It gives the losers nothing as they don't really get points, but they can get out of there if they want. Maybe say that 3-4 minutes have to go buy before "re spawn multiplier" takes effect. This might not be perfect, but it would definitely be the "least exploitive" way to fix this issue for most people.

thoughts?

My thoughts is that you shouldn't get anything you haven't earned. You keep talking about this, as if it's somehow unfair that you don't get big rewards for losing. You lost! You got beaten. They won, they take the spoils. If you want the spoils, find a way to beat 'em. This is the fundamentals of any competitive environment. I don't get why this is such a hard concept to understand. Welfare has it's place, but that place is in reality. Please keep it away from gaming, thank you very much.

[freshour]

@Razid - the concept that you aren't seeming to understand through your nerd rage is a pretty simple one. I don't think people want an easy reward or welfare as you put it. They just wanna get out of the SC they are getting smashed in faster to try again sooner with a different team. I really doubt every single opponent be it destro or order wants to farm kills the entire time. Some teams even pull back to make it more of a fight. Fact is people got upset enough to come here and it has happened a few times so there is indeed a problem. Whether you want to admit it or not is your call.

No, everyone is not as good as you are. No, everyone is not as competitive as you (or myself) for that matter and would rather just get out of the SC regardless of emblems to get another group to fight against as this premade is ganking their lunch. It doesn't mean they get free rewards, free renown, free anything... just a faster end to this impending doom that can be made quickly if the other team chooses or very very slow and long if they choose as well.

So while I mean no disrespect to your passion for the game as I think passion is a great thing. If you stepped back a bit and realized that not everyone has that, or will ever have it. You can find a middle ground that makes both parties happy. You put it very well when you said this isn't reality. This is a game that the reality can be controlled and moderated how the devs see fit.

In an SC where the teams ended up not being very balanced rather than spend grueling hours trying to perfect a system that works pretty well most of the time. Why not save them a few hours that they could be working on other things and implement a pretty simple system to end games that are already over a little sooner. Then the premades can have a quick win and on to the next one. The guys who lost don't have to sit and be pissed off as long, and everyone can get in a few more SC's every play session.

I hope you don't take offense to this and try and calm down that fire a bit and realize that not everyone is bad. Not everyone is out to get you or ruin your game that you are obviously trying very hard to defend. But everyone has fun in different ways. To some it is spawn camping an enemy so bad they can't even step an inch outside and it lets them know they did well. To others it is getting in as many SC's as they can each session and not having to "learn their lesson" for a drawn out game.

[spikespiegel84]

Scenarios have objectives. The match shuold really turn around it, while I saw with my own eyes a match won by destro (hell yeah) just slaughtering orders like pigs while they were holding the artifact the whole time. Holding the artifact doesn't make a difference if you get wasted, while I think should be a bit more remunerative, since a healer is basically fully dedicated to keep the poor bastard alive. That would really motivate the team to get it back.

For what's about bonuses in SCs I am totally against. We risk to unbalance furthermore.
White flag? Maybe. But only available at 350+ points distance, and need to be voted by 75% of players.

AND NO REWARD

I always wondered:
Is it possible to set a couple of maps for PURE team deathmatch? No flags, no artifacts, no fancypants but pure slaughter?

[Razid1987]

Spoiler:

@Razid - the concept that you aren't seeming to understand through your nerd rage is a pretty simple one. I don't think people want an easy reward or welfare as you put it. They just wanna get out of the SC they are getting smashed in faster to try again sooner with a different team. I really doubt every single opponent be it destro or order wants to farm kills the entire time. Some teams even pull back to make it more of a fight. Fact is people got upset enough to come here and it has happened a few times so there is indeed a problem. Whether you want to admit it or not is your call.

No, everyone is not as good as you are. No, everyone is not as competitive as you (or myself) for that matter and would rather just get out of the SC regardless of emblems to get another group to fight against as this premade is ganking their lunch. It doesn't mean they get free rewards, free renown, free anything... just a faster end to this impending doom that can be made quickly if the other team chooses or very very slow and long if they choose as well.

So while I mean no disrespect to your passion for the game as I think passion is a great thing. If you stepped back a bit and realized that not everyone has that, or will ever have it. You can find a middle ground that makes both parties happy. You put it very well when you said this isn't reality. This is a game that the reality can be controlled and moderated how the devs see fit.

In an SC where the teams ended up not being very balanced rather than spend grueling hours trying to perfect a system that works pretty well most of the time. Why not save them a few hours that they could be working on other things and implement a pretty simple system to end games that are already over a little sooner. Then the premades can have a quick win and on to the next one. The guys who lost don't have to sit and be pissed off as long, and everyone can get in a few more SC's every play session.

I hope you don't take offense to this and try and calm down that fire a bit and realize that not everyone is bad. Not everyone is out to get you or ruin your game that you are obviously trying very hard to defend. But everyone has fun in different ways. To some it is spawn camping an enemy so bad they can't even step an inch outside and it lets them know they did well. To others it is getting in as many SC's as they can each session and not having to "learn their lesson" for a drawn out game.

It's frustrating. Threads like these come up daily. Some people want to change this game, to something it never was on live. As far as I know, most people play this game, because it's Warhammer Online. Not because it's Warhammer Online 2.0, Azahammer Online, or anything else.
The thing is, you think a middle ground is what is best for both parties, but I don't see it like that. I don't see how helping the underdog can in fact ever be the best solution. If you don't want to be farmed? Then you can always log out. Or Book out.
No one is forcing you to play the game, or do scenarios. And if someone is losing regularly, then maybe the problem lies with that person, and not the game. You want a way out of a Scenario quick? Then feed them kills, or quit. There are plenty of ways to do something about it.

If I was in a premade vs premade, and we got farmed, I wouldn't want to suddenly start winning, because of some "sympathy buff". What if it actually made us win the Scenario? Did we deserve that win? No. And what would be motivation be to try and get better, if you can win even after being completely roflstomped by better players for several minutes? You didn't learn anything from that, and how could you? Why should you?

[freshour]

Okay, there are numerous ways to learn/improve. Being a part of pretty high level athletics myself, having a guy throw 95 mph fast balls by you until you hit is usually not the best way to learn how to hit it... Sure it works for some. But there are tons of other exercises to improve your swing, muscle memory, hand-eye, reaction time, the works.

If you can sit there with a straight face and tell me the only way people get better is by getting ROFLStomped into the ground by pres, well then you are more special than I originally thought.

Fact - that does make SOME individuals improve. We aren't being paid to play here. This is where people come for fun. Anyone ANYWHERE on this server saying "Deal with it or get out" besides a dev needs to wake up and realize that he isn't that important....

You have a lot of posts. You must be super good. But a white flag type of button especially for the longer SC's mentioned above would be a pretty good idea. I haven't Q'd for cemetery since like the 3rd or 4th day I played here. I really do like objectives with the occasional slayer type every now and then. But when a few premades get on (both sides) and stomp solo or duo q's - no one has fun besides the trolls.

Having read a bit more of your style and how you play. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to see what part of that spectrum you fall on.. But hopefully the devs an shed some light on it. They have stated numerous times that this is an alpha. This is NOT live. This is their version of the game that we all really really like, and in some cases even love. So while your opinion is super unique and amazing and special and short and yellow riding... It isn't final, so please stop acting like it is.

Really wish you could read about what the majority of players are saying, and not what the elite "I played live for four years bro? you?" crowd is saying.

[mindmelt]

Spoiler:

@Razid - the concept that you aren't seeming to understand through your nerd rage is a pretty simple one. I don't think people want an easy reward or welfare as you put it. They just wanna get out of the SC they are getting smashed in faster to try again sooner with a different team. I really doubt every single opponent be it destro or order wants to farm kills the entire time. Some teams even pull back to make it more of a fight. Fact is people got upset enough to come here and it has happened a few times so there is indeed a problem. Whether you want to admit it or not is your call.

No, everyone is not as good as you are. No, everyone is not as competitive as you (or myself) for that matter and would rather just get out of the SC regardless of emblems to get another group to fight against as this premade is ganking their lunch. It doesn't mean they get free rewards, free renown, free anything... just a faster end to this impending doom that can be made quickly if the other team chooses or very very slow and long if they choose as well.

So while I mean no disrespect to your passion for the game as I think passion is a great thing. If you stepped back a bit and realized that not everyone has that, or will ever have it. You can find a middle ground that makes both parties happy. You put it very well when you said this isn't reality. This is a game that the reality can be controlled and moderated how the devs see fit.

In an SC where the teams ended up not being very balanced rather than spend grueling hours trying to perfect a system that works pretty well most of the time. Why not save them a few hours that they could be working on other things and implement a pretty simple system to end games that are already over a little sooner. Then the premades can have a quick win and on to the next one. The guys who lost don't have to sit and be pissed off as long, and everyone can get in a few more SC's every play session.

I hope you don't take offense to this and try and calm down that fire a bit and realize that not everyone is bad. Not everyone is out to get you or ruin your game that you are obviously trying very hard to defend. But everyone has fun in different ways. To some it is spawn camping an enemy so bad they can't even step an inch outside and it lets them know they did well. To others it is getting in as many SC's as they can each session and not having to "learn their lesson" for a drawn out game.

Spoiler:

It's frustrating. Threads like these come up daily. Some people want to change this game, to something it never was on live. As far as I know, most people play this game, because it's Warhammer Online. Not because it's Warhammer Online 2.0, Azahammer Online, or anything else.
The thing is, you think a middle ground is what is best for both parties, but I don't see it like that. I don't see how helping the underdog can in fact ever be the best solution. If you don't want to be farmed? Then you can always log out. Or Book out.
No one is forcing you to play the game, or do scenarios. And if someone is losing regularly, then maybe the problem lies with that person, and not the game. You want a way out of a Scenario quick? Then feed them kills, or quit. There are plenty of ways to do something about it.

If I was in a premade vs premade, and we got farmed, I wouldn't want to suddenly start winning, because of some "sympathy buff". What if it actually made us win the Scenario? Did we deserve that win? No. And what would be motivation be to try and get better, if you can win even after being completely roflstomped by better players for several minutes? You didn't learn anything from that, and how could you? Why should you?

Razid, Hi, I notice through-out your posts you use the word 'farmed' a lot, I get the idea of it but I just don't understand how it can be fun for anyone, wouldn't you rather have some solid competition rather than just being in a 6man 'farm' group? It must feel like PvE all the time? lol

[th3gatekeeper]

It's frustrating. Threads like these come up daily. Some people want to change this game, to something it never was on live. As far as I know, most people play this game, because it's Warhammer Online. Not because it's Warhammer Online 2.0, Azahammer Online, or anything else.
The thing is, you think a middle ground is what is best for both parties, but I don't see it like that. I don't see how helping the underdog can in fact ever be the best solution. If you don't want to be farmed? Then you can always log out. Or Book out.
No one is forcing you to play the game, or do scenarios. And if someone is losing regularly, then maybe the problem lies with that person, and not the game. You want a way out of a Scenario quick? Then feed them kills, or quit. There are plenty of ways to do something about it.

If I was in a premade vs premade, and we got farmed, I wouldn't want to suddenly start winning, because of some "sympathy buff". What if it actually made us win the Scenario? Did we deserve that win? No. And what would be motivation be to try and get better, if you can win even after being completely roflstomped by better players for several minutes? You didn't learn anything from that, and how could you? Why should you?

I dont think this is true. Even the DEVs have stated their goal isnt to re-make LIVE, its to make the best game they can. Heck how many MAJOR things are different from live to now? TONS.

I played live, but not for super long. I think its ignorant if someone thinks they cant learn anything new, or there arent better ways to do things and I, for one, am glad the DEVs have an open mind about it.

Something that has KILLED other games I have played is exactly this concept. People were in a lopsided match, never leave spawn, or the game is just pushed back against spawn the entire time. Ive been on teams that have done this and been on the receiving end as well and neither game is "fun". Usually this happens when one of the team gets no healers, or no tanks, or no DPS classes. Ive seen it happen! Try playing Tor Anroc without a healer and see how well your team does LOL!

I think PART of the issue as well, is people sometimes WANT to ignore the win and just farm kills. I have again seen this happen on my own team as well as opposing teams... They ignore the bauble, let it sit right by enemy spawn and anyone who runs down to get it, gets nuked. Just a pure kill farm. I think these are the games that are the worst.


I think SOME alleviation to this would be things like:
1) Increased "score tick" for games like Praag that have "flags", another is Nordenwatch, should reward more points the more flags you have capped. If you 3 cap someone, the point tick should be REALLY noticeable.
2) Remove the "damage/sec" on the bauble. Instead something like 50% less inc healing would be a painful "debuff" that would make the bauble user need to be "assisted".
3) Another option (not suggesting all/both of these) would be whoever kills the bauble user automatically inherits the bauble. There is no "picking it up". If environment kills, it resets back at mid. This forces the enemy team to not drag the game on by intentionally "baiting" the bauble for the enemy team just to farm kills.

[Idrinth]

to be honest, the biggest improvement I'd see here is a matchmaker by classtype/spec and notifiing players about the amount of classes queing currently on a command(or when queing), so they can see, that their dps-archetype needs to wait due to the fact, that the only two healers and two tanks are taking care of the other 200+ dps
some might not like playing healers or tanks, but most just never seem to have tried from the comments I've heard and seen - maybe couple it with a small bonus on renown in scenarios(single digit) if someone logged from an overly common archetype to an underrepresentend one?

Other than that reducing gear gaps might be a solution in t4 to help make fights longer - because noone learns from being stomped, but losing might work if they can actually see their error