DoK/WP with book/chalice...

[Azarael]

Regarding group cleanse - I don't think some of you understand what balance means. You do not justify an element that is too strong by pointing out other elements, that are too strong, that are kept in check by that element and using these as an excuse to keep that element intact (in this case, AoE debuffs). You bring them ALL down, whether directly or indirectly (by having the group cleanse element specifically tackle AoE debuffs and not ST ones).

I'll tell you all right now - if you're afraid of potentially having to make wide-ranging adjustments to other elements to deal with one element that's a problem, you might as well just give up.

[DefinitelyNotWingz]

also what makes zealot better at kiteing than the DoK for example? flash heal? LOL

what exactly makes the RP "tankier" than the WP vs melee? 3 minute cd, severable "aoe detaunt? ancestral inheritance + regen shielding? making u have to drop resto burst or blessings?

i know this will just end up being being answered with l2p but i am genuinely curious.

Probably l2p, cant tell since you prefer to post anonymously.
Learn to read is your problem right now:

WP: Devastator 1590, Prayer 560, 5x150 750, 3x 134 402 -> 3302 = 93,81%
RP: Devastator 795, Prayer 560, 5x150 750, 3x 134 402 -> 2507 = 71,22%

Difference: 765, RP racial 528, new difference 237 = 6,73% (keep in mind that rp can provide a higher armor buff than the prayer +10% armorpen reduction) If you give me the numbers I am sure you get a 15-20% better armor for rp than for wp, with a greater healoutput thanks to healbless.

A zealot kites better because he can heal while running, he starts 50f farther away, he has his kick at lvl 32 and he has stagger. He also cleanses most of the meleesnares, not being able to cleanse sw snare is a disadvantage though but you have to build your setup properly anyways.

[DefinitelyNotWingz]

Regarding group cleanse - I don't think some of you understand what balance means. You do not justify an element that is too strong by pointing out other elements, that are too strong, that are kept in check by that element and using these as an excuse to keep that element intact (in this case, AoE debuffs). You bring them ALL down, whether directly or indirectly (by having the group cleanse element specifically tackle AoE debuffs and not ST ones).

If you meant me, I already posted the same thing that you suggested.

The problem about grp cleanse is that it is connected to ae debuffs on the opposing side, like cs on destro and sl on order. A gcd for a gcd while the majority still thinks that grp cleanse cleanses 6 gcds.
The grp cleanse can be adjusted by adjusting debuff types of every class, the single ones may only be cleansed by single cleanse while ae debuffs are affected by grp cleanse, sth in that way but not so extreme.

I'll tell you all right now - if you're afraid of potentially having to make wide-ranging adjustments to other elements to deal with one element that's a problem, you might as well just give up.

Big changes have to be tested. Any change made until now was not tested in grp vs grp yet as far as I know.

[Azarael]

Yes, I wasn't referring to you with my comment. Obviously I agree that changes need to be tested properly in a group versus group environment. I just wish to make the point clear to everyone else that it's rarely as simple as just nerfing or buffing an under/overpowered element and expecting things to be absolutely fine afterwards - other elements are involved as well.

[Scrilian]

The thing is - more often then not there is no problem to begin with.
How does one can reasonably identify is an element is blatantly overpowered, if the approach is isolated?

This way some can say even Close Quarters cast reduction is OP when everyone and their grandma is going Sorc/BW and taking it and it should be nerfed. What is the medium of identifying if it is great by design or broken-strong?

Aoe-cleanse as NotWingz stated is particularly great when you try to fight 6vZerg and is bad vs direct assist. Still it arguably doesn't make other healers obsolete and is supposed to be great at sustaining the group.

I know that it easy to push some ridiculous stuff by pointing out unrelated issues, but geez mate, whenever some old timer tries to talk about abilities and setups it affects in more than "this class ability is x and y" - the argument is just revolves around him not wanting/being afraid to change.
Or maybe its just me

[Azarael]

The thing you have to realise is that "great by design" and "broken/strong" are two ways of talking about the same concept. One is in a positive spin and the other in a negative spin. If you cannot say that everything in the game is "great by design", only some parts of it, your game is imbalanced and you have problems.

If everyone and their grandmother selects a particular tactic, either that tactic is too good, or the situation in which that tactic shines is overprevalent (possibly because other elements of game design are out of whack - see group cleanse). Either issue should be addressed. Tactics should be like their namesakes - situational or aimed to have a character play along different lines, with different strengths and weaknesses. There are many that clearly don't conform to this idea.

In other words - if you select group cleanse, there should be an opportunity cost in your having done so that I can exploit. If there is no such opportunity cost, the tactic isn't a tactic - it's just a lol buff.

[Nameless]

imo group /not aoe.../ cleanse should be with 10/15 sec cd, so backline heaelrs could cleanse 2 targets while dok/wp could cleanse 1-6 and most importantly cd reduction buffs wont make group cleanse spammable

all dok/wp's heals at range 80/75 so other healers have real positional advantage over dok/wp whom are compensated with meduim armor for that

After some real testing if that is not enough add dok/wp cooldown on group heal after the cast time is over. So backline healer could cast 1 gheal and start second cast while dok/wp could cast 1 gheal and other heal. That is much more balanced compare 1 gheal from clothies vs 2 group heals from dok/wp. Esp at later stages where rf regens is so easy to gain

[Tesq]

i do not agree with annaiese on the group cleanse talk the only way group cleanse becaming op and kill dots classes is when it work under the influence of CD reduction.

In the specific case it's even worst on order as wp do not even need to target, the icon just enlight and he cleanse 1 from every party memeber every 0,5 sec.

AOE cleanse are fine there are TONS of aoe buff /debuff in game all of them are spammable, they are also able to hide other important debuff such heall debuff/woudns debuff.

I have no problem dps with my magus even if enemy have 2 group cleanse cos they still need to heal and look i have 2 not cleaseable damage over time and others like sorcs can do direct damages.
Of course if 2x wp just have to cleanse only then it's obvious my dps get totally negated that's exatly why you cleanse 6x ppl and i dot 9x ppl. The more the fight escalate the more aoe cleanse is needed to balance aoe spam.
It's a problem related to party composition (wb indeed.. this game is balanced around wb hence the group cleanse) , you need ppl that do direc damages and ppl that do dots togheter not only 1 of those. You need to keep a pressure on enemys healers make them decide what they should do if cleanse or heal.

this is not meant to balance shatter limbs /bad gas, CD increase/decrease are one of the most broken stuff into game they should be totall rewamp (all 4 definettly).
They allow to just stop enemy spam and make your aoe wp/dok heals spam/cleanse so much better.

(1,5 cd became 0 and so instead have 1 sec cast time + 0,5 global cd on aoe heal you have 1 sec aoe spam with no CD)

aoe cleanse x se it's not the problem it is what make it better or worst.

in the specific case of shatter limbs + sm cd increase the combo it's just so broken you not only have a spammable cd decrease but also a cd increase and you have it on a tank further make it better so you also have unstopable aoe heals and enemy aoe spam locked with a 5sec CD.

it's the same old strategy dont let you play the enemy which is bullshit and it concern NO SKILL.

imo every healer should have an aoe cleanse, cos you can't just cleanse while also direct heal you have to choose, dok/wp have ineed to spec for hit whichis totally fine while other should get it as core.

Then the game is full of snare, you are snared pretty much of the time and it's pretty much spamable. And some tank snare are even not cleanseable by dok/wp.

If you want to nerf to aoe cleanse you also need to nerf everyone aoe dots /snares/debuff not only shatterlimbs/ bad gas, you also need to nerf SM cd decrease as it's retarding better for boost aoe heal and cleanse than choppa fasta with a 2 min CD.

[Azarael]

Could you explain how the proposition to have Purify and Patch Wounds perform both a single target cleanse and a group cleanse, with the group cleanse component only able to affect AoE debuffs, would be an issue?

[Bozzax]

Aoe-cleanse as NotWingz stated is particularly great when you try to fight 6vZerg and is bad vs direct assist.

Group cleanse is the best healer tactic in game regardless of setup or opposition. The only time I would consider not sloting it was if I was doing 1v1 with my healer

Still it arguably doesn't make other healers obsolete and is supposed to be great at sustaining the group.

Have you ever seen a 6man* slot RP/RP, AM/AM, RP/AM, ZEAL/ZEAL, SHAM/SHAM, ZEAL/SHAM for multiple occasions?

Personally I can't recall a single time I've seen this 2008-2016.

* Not a random group or everybody was away so we had to do with a **** setup grp.

EDIT: Hmm maybe there was a 2x RP actually not 100% but there may have been one when I think about it.