DoK/WP with book/chalice...

[Bozzax]

Isn't it a bit pointless to generalise based on a class specific tactic? (1/4 cloth healers)?

Also maybe look at end gear (1431 + [660] vs 2860) and consider blue 907 potions vs 25% on tic to proc 1056?

[Annaise16]

You simply don't understand how damage and mitigation work in the game. A toon isn't killed by the amounts of damage it mitigates. It is killed by the amount it receives. So those are the values that you have to compare.

Lol.

WP: Devastator 1560, Prayer 560, 5x150 750, 3x 134 402 -> 3272 = 92,95%
RP: Devastator 795, Prayer 560, 5x150 750, 3x 134 402 -> 2507 = 71,22%

Difference: 765, RP racial 528, new difference 237 = 6,73% (keep in mind that rp can provide a higher armor buff than the prayer +10% armorpen reduction) If you give me the numbers I am sure you get a 15-20% better armor for rp than for wp, with a greater healoutput thanks to healbless.

RP is at 3,27% more mitigation than wp, not even counting the higher armor buff of regenerative shielding compared to prayer.

Higher mitigation = longer life

Just end this right here, say " sorry I was wrong " and refrain from not backing up your claims with calculated numbers.
Then we are fine.

So the RP has to give up another tactic slot. Does Regenerative shielding stack with stountness of stone. If not, they still have less armor than the wp. If it does, they have given up 2 tactic slots to get marginally ahead of the wp. And we haven't even brought the wp's detaunt into the conversation yet.

You still haven't understood the point I was making about the difference between incoming damage and mitigation. You use the mitigation values to calculate the amounts of incoming damage. You then compare the relative amounts of incoming damage to work out the difference in effectiveness of changes to mitigation. You do not compare the mitigation values directly. I'll give an example.

A toon's armor gives them 30% mitigation against an attack. They are hit by 1000 points of damage (after mit by toughness). So the damage they receive is 700 (with 300 mitigated).

They can increase their mit from armor by 15% up to 45%. That is a 50% increase on the initial 30% mit value. Now, the incoming damage from a 1000 point hit will be 550 (with 450 mitigated). This is a 21% decrease in incoming damage from the initial 700 point value. So a 50% increase in armor delivered a 21% decrease in damage.

The mitigation values are important because they allow you to calculate the amounts of incoming damage. But it is the percentage change in incoming damage that determines how effective the armor buff was.

[ThePollie]

Isn't it a bit pointless to generalise based on a class specific tactic? (1/4 cloth healers)?

Also maybe look at end gear? (1431 vs 2860) and consider blue 907 potions vs 25% on tic to proc 1056?

Honestly, I found maintaining 100% uptime with this on my Zealot was fairly easy. It is a bit of RNG, but you get a lot of opportunities over those 15 seconds to reproc the effect before it ends.

[DefinitelyNotWingz]

Isn't it a bit pointless to generalise based on a class specific tactic? (1/4 cloth healers)?

Also maybe look at end gear (1431 + [660] vs 2860) and consider blue 907 potions vs 25% on tic to proc 1056?

Do the calculation, show us the result.

[DefinitelyNotWingz]

So the RP has to give up another tactic slot. Does Regenerative shielding stack with stountness of stone. If not, they still have less armor than the wp. If it does, they have given up 2 tactic slots to get marginally ahead of the wp. And we haven't even brought the wp's detaunt into the conversation yet.

You still haven't understood the point I was making about the difference between incoming damage and mitigation. You use the mitigation values to calculate the amounts of incoming damage. You then compare the relative amounts of incoming damage to work out the difference in effectiveness of changes to mitigation. You do not compare the mitigation values directly. I'll give an example.

A toon's armor gives them 30% mitigation against an attack. They are hit by 1000 points of damage (after mit by toughness). So the damage they receive is 700 (with 300 mitigated).

They can increase their mit from armor by 15% up to 45%. That is a 50% increase on the initial 30% mit value. Now, the incoming damage from a 1000 point hit will be 550 (with 450 mitigated). This is a 21% decrease in incoming damage from the initial 700 point value. So a 50% increase in armor delivered a 21% decrease in damage.

The mitigation values are important because they allow you to calculate the amounts of incoming damage. But it is the percentage change in incoming damage that determines how effective the armor buff was.

The rp gives up whatever he has to give up to be as tanky as he has to be.
If you dont believe me that rp can have more armor, I can prove you ingame (even though my calculation shouldve been enough), it takes effort though and I want sth in return.

Armormitigation is directly proportional to dmg mitigated, so what are you trying to make up here? More mitigation is more dmg mitigated. If the rp can get more mitigation he is tankier.
If someone wants to bring up the absorb proc I want a calculation for that aswell.

[Scrilian]

Besides, another thought coursed through my mind during lunch, that its not only the 65/39 (50/25) % armor that bugled me - why is it average 40% penetration?

I run my slayer up to ~600ish WS, while my WH is at around 230 WS. A what about WL with his debuff. On what assumption average armorpen is based and how Torment/Sundering Chop is taken into account?

I can't tell the number, because, again, I'm bad at math and stat calculations, but it doesn't justify proposed WP/DoK having 50% less healing just because your "calculation" showed they take 25% less damage.

My feel is that, even if we isolate the armor debuffs, the reality is far from 65% armor DoK vs 40% average dps pen, even without taking into account population, class representation, different comps and all of those who don't min-max their stats properly.

Its like one old russian joke, made during the soviet era, about vast generalizations and ridiculous decisions made by the KPSS Gosplan - "the average temperature of a hospital is 36.6"

[Bozzax]

Honestly, I found maintaining 100% uptime with this on my Zealot was fairly easy. It is a bit of RNG, but you get a lot of opportunities over those 15 seconds to reproc the effect before it ends.

Sever Blessing? KD? no luck? = not up when you need it

The really ironic part is that the 1056 & reduced pen buff is actually more likely to be active on the WP compared to the RP in a melee train focus fire

[ThePollie]

Sever Blessing? KD?

Yes, those are things that can happen. Good talk, though.

[Nekkma]

The thing about dok/wp is that they can heal under pressure and that alot of their tools are for the group. A dok that gets focused will still use group cleanse, gheal, group absorb and group hot. A shaman that gets focused will run away and barely provide any healing for his group until he is in a safe spot again. Yes, cloth healers can be very tanky and difficult to take down but it involves kiting which leads to substantially less healing to the rest of the group.

Also, someone wrote earlier that the cloth healers gheal casttime should be reduced. Please no. Let dok/wp be the main grouphealers. Rather adjust the dok/wp single target healing, i.e. nerf it to the point where double dok/wp is not a viable setup to deal with focused burstdamage.

[Sigimund]

That could work. AOE niche for Salvation and focus ST for AM/RP. Do the cloth healers need anything to cement this or do they have enough with tools like Desperation, buff procs and spam cleanses?