AM/Shammy Healing

[rmpl]

Wasn't this thread about putting am/shamans healing on par with wp/doks? Why are you guys even talking about turning them into even bigger hybrids?

Hybrids are a gimmick, they can never be stronger than the archetype they're trying to mimic because there would be no reason to play the real thing. What's the purpose of hybrids then? Sure, they might be fun and unique but they will always be considered inferior. I know Aza loves hybrids but the vision of a serious tryhard premade running hybrids is just utopian.

[Jaycub]

Because buffing the hybrid spec also buffs the healing spec because of the nature of the class mechanic. AM/Shaman are meant to do both damage and healing, but how things are now there isn't a reason to DPS as a healer and the healing in DPS spec is extremely subpar.

[roadkillrobin]

It's not that there's is no reason to dps, it's more that there is no time.
Have you tried using anything but grouheal when facing a 2x Slayer premade for example, If you're lucky enough to not get hit by SL that is. The moment you stop spamming groupheal your entire party is on 20% HP.
Were in hell would you find a spot to fill in a dps skill in there, it's hard to even get a AP drain or reaply hots due to GCD Actually it's not possible to do anything but groupheal spam and hope for the best in that situation.

For Lifetap/Hybrid Healing to viable in how the game looks now
* Lifetap heals need to heal entire group fo 300% of the dmg done to ballance for guards and buffs and probobly be undefendble aswell.
* Heals on full dps mechanic need to cost no AP, use int as source of healing and be instant cast.
* Steps on mechanic lowered to 2-3.
* Have a way to build mechanic without having to target someone.

[Minerva]

For Lifetap/Hybrid Healing to viable in how the game looks now
* Lifetap heals need to heal entire group fo 300% of the dmg done to ballance for guards and buffs and probobly be undefendble aswell.
* Have a way to build mechanic without having to target someone.

Sounds pretty no-skill to me...

[roadkillrobin]

For Lifetap/Hybrid Healing to viable in how the game looks now
* Lifetap heals need to heal entire group fo 300% of the dmg done to ballance for guards and buffs and probobly be undefendble aswell.
* Have a way to build mechanic without having to target someone.

Sounds pretty no-skill to me...

It's not a mather of skill, it's a mather of ballance.
If you take up a healing spot in a group and can't do LoS plays with em coz you need a offensive target to heal off you need to have a way to build mechanic to be able to heal with a intellect build. Or you just gonna be replaced by someone who can. BW/Sorcs can build mechanic out of LOS why shouldn't AM/Shaman?
The 300% heal of lifetaps are to compensate for Guards and Defensive Buffs, A skill like, I'll take that hits a guarded target for maybe 200 DMG if you're lucky, Whats a 350 ST heal every 2 sec gonna do? A 600 Groupheal every 2 sec is still alot worse then our regular Groupheal but when hitting unguarded targets 1200 Groupheal every 2 Sec with the payoff of being much closer to combat and we're suddenly talking high risk high payoff mechanic. These are just blanket numbers tho.

[Azarael]

It seems like the same things happen over and over again.

People look at the current state of the game, see that every hybrid failed, and believe that making them work is somehow impossible and we have to have a game full of absolute pure classes. To point out how flawed one of the arguments being used here is, you're talking about how action economy for the class doesn't really allow it to play as a hybrid. So link benefits related to action / time economy into the mechanic as well, when you're twisting it. AP cost and cast time reductions. The aim being to allow a twisted AM or Shaman to maintain higher output in heals while it attempts to use its mechanic than it otherwise would be able to.

It'd be nice if when pointing out flaws, solutions could be proposed at the same time.

[Nekkma]

It seems like the same things happen over and over again.

People look at the current state of the game, see that every hybrid failed, and believe that making them work is somehow impossible and we have to have a game full of absolute pure classes. To point out how flawed one of the arguments being used here is, you're talking about how action economy for the class doesn't really allow it to play as a hybrid. So link benefits related to action / time economy into the mechanic as well, when you're twisting it. AP cost and cast time reductions. The aim being to allow a twisted AM or Shaman to maintain higher output in heals while it attempts to use its mechanic than it otherwise would be able to.

It'd be nice if when pointing out flaws, solutions could be proposed at the same time.

This is a bit unfair as you seem to assume the position that hybrid classes is a good idea in general. Some of the posters here, me included, is of a different oppinion and do not want the shaman/am healer to become a hybrid. Lets be honest, 5 years on live and the present state of the classes means that the heal specc is a pure healer, not a hybrid. Making the shaman healer a hybrid would change the class from what it has been since release in 2008.

Personally, I think that the "burden of proof" to present arguments should be on the people advocating a change to the established class concept. So far, the only argument I have seen (that relates to healers which is what this thread is about) is an argument of original intent. In my book, this is not even an argument.

[roadkillrobin]

I've put up up tons of sugestions and sollutions.

Just 2-3 post above you have some.

I've sugested a skill that allow you to heal or dps with the current mechanic. Wich you pretty much bashed coz you didn't want more healbots. Then i posted a video of those so called healbots, doing completly different things then healing.

I've sugested skill changes, tactc changes to make the classes more viable for WB's.

[gungnir08]

Azarael, would it be possible to make the lifetap spec for AM/Shaman scale damage with Willpower or Intelligence, depending on which is higher? Or perhaps make the abilities therein scale damage with equal parts Willpower and Intelligence.

As for suggestions, perhaps make lifetaps heal for a specific amount in addition to any healing which occurs from damage (like the WP/DoK melee heals, but obviously less due to the relative ease with which AM/Shaman can toss them out).

Where specific skills are concerned, another idea would be to increase the cooldown of Transfer Force and its mirror, but make the healing generated heal the caster's group instead of merely the defensive target. Also, I think the 13 point Vaul ability (and its mirror) should also heal the AM's or Shaman's group instead of just the defensive target, even if you have to increase its cooldown a bit to make the change in good faith.

Finally, as for the mechanic, I like the idea of decreasing AP cost of twisted abilities on top of any cast time or damage/healing buffs it may confer. Have you also thought of perhaps lowering the ceiling a bit though? By that, I mean perhaps lowering the max High Magic (and its mirror) to 3 or so, while changing the benefits of having 2 points to what is currently 3, and changing the current 5 to the new 3, if that makes sense. If this change was made, though, the tactic which gives a chance to get extra points on successful casts would need to be examined, and probably either nerfed or completely changed.

Apologies if any of what I've said has been suggested already or is unreasonable for some reason I haven't considered. I have a lot of experience playing AM, though, and these changes strike me as a decent place to start, if you don't want to scrap the mechanic completely.

[mursie]

It seems like the same things happen over and over again.

People look at the current state of the game, see that every hybrid failed, and believe that making them work is somehow impossible and we have to have a game full of absolute pure classes. To point out how flawed one of the arguments being used here is, you're talking about how action economy for the class doesn't really allow it to play as a hybrid. So link benefits related to action / time economy into the mechanic as well, when you're twisting it. AP cost and cast time reductions. The aim being to allow a twisted AM or Shaman to maintain higher output in heals while it attempts to use its mechanic than it otherwise would be able to.

It'd be nice if when pointing out flaws, solutions could be proposed at the same time.

Hybrids are very difficult to balance. And many times, the hybrids usually break the game.

I like what swtor ultimately did. Apparently copied from wow but I can't confirm (didn't play wow). Ultimately, they scrapped the three trees altogether and made each tree a "discipline". You were locked into a specific tree and only that tree. This allowed any toon (WP/DOK for example) to clearly and easily be identified as either DPS or Heals. Matchmaking was then easy to enforce as well... because your discpline ensured that you weren't a heal archetype toon in a match intended to fill a heal slot and were infact dps. By restricting builds to specific trees - you were identified very specifically to DPS or Heals.

Hybrids create the opportunity for all of this to create conflict. Imho.