Recent Topics

Ads

Dual Wield and Greatweapon balance

Share your ideas and feedback to help improve the game.
Forum rules
Before posting in this forum, please read the Terms of Use.

This section is for providing feedback and sharing your opinions on what could be improved or changed for the Return of Reckoning project.

To ensure your feedback is as helpful as possible, please review the Rules and Posting Guidelines before posting.
User avatar
Genisaurus
Former Staff
Posts: 1054

Re: Dual Wield and Greatweapon balance

Post#31 » Fri Jan 15, 2016 5:58 pm

zabis wrote:This seems to be another buff to 2h WP, will DW dok be getting any love?
Maybe, maybe not. It's a separate issue, for a separate thread.

A better question for that thread might be, "Given the changes to sets and 2H performance, is it necessary to keep the recent change to WP detaunts, extend it to DoKs, or roll it back altogether?" But if you asked that now, the answer would invariably be, "We need to collect more data on the new state of affairs before we can safely come to any conclusions."

Changes work best when you work from general to specific. In this case, we're starting with the general idea that the passive benefit granted by 2H for every class is weaker than other passives.

This isn't directed toward you, but toward the playerbase in general: Don't make the mistake of assuming that because we make a change or implement something new, that we stand by it 100%. We're always incorporating feedback, and we regularly change our minds on what was/is/might be a good idea based on that feedback or the data gathered. But we need that data; some conclusions can be forgone or assumed, but there are always side-effects you don't see and we need to know whether or not those will be good for the game or worse before we can make a definitive conclusion.

This is the reason why this is an "alpha" instead of a "beta." it's not just because the server is a buggy, incomplete mess, it's because we know what design direction didn't work, but we're still trying to figure out what will. Getting that right often means making and reverting lots of major changes like this, as necessary.

Ads
User avatar
zabis
Posts: 1215

Re: Dual Wield and Greatweapon balance

Post#32 » Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:03 pm

I understand, I'm just bringing up the point that Order has more 2h classes than Destro does, so it would benefit them more.
Soulcheg wrote:Want mirrored classes - play chess.
Genisaurus wrote:You are not entitled to Best-in-Slot gear just because you log on.
#266

User avatar
Genisaurus
Former Staff
Posts: 1054

Re: Dual Wield and Greatweapon balance

Post#33 » Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:12 pm

zabis wrote:I understand, I'm just bringing up the point that Order has more 2h classes than Destro does, so it would benefit them more.
Sure, I understand. But it benefits Order in the same sense that implementing passive abilities that proc on-hit benefits Destro more, because they have more dual-wielding classes.

Bretin might be on the right track that it is a buff to classes that might not need it, but as-is, the passive incentivizes behavior generally considered to be bad/wrong, and provides no other benefits. Maybe if the 2-Hander made someone better at killing tanks that would be another thing. But aside from more block strikethrough, I don't know how you would do that. Increased armor penetration on all great weapons? That's a buff that would scale better against tanks than light-armored targets, but it's also still a DPS buff to classes that don't necessarily need it.

User avatar
RyanMakara
Posts: 1563

Re: Dual Wield and Greatweapon balance

Post#34 » Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:15 pm

TenTonHammer wrote:None

but question

what makes parry strike-through better than block strike through?

I also feel that the dps diffrence between 2h and 1h is not that big atm and echo noises suggestion
Block strike-through only works against tanks, not really a target you'd wish to cleave through if you're a melee DPS.
Image

User avatar
TenTonHammer
Posts: 3806

Re: Dual Wield and Greatweapon balance

Post#35 » Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:26 pm

Genisaurus wrote:
Bretin might be on the right track that it is a buff to classes that might not need it, but as-is, the passive incentivizes behavior generally considered to be bad/wrong, and provides no other benefits. Maybe if the 2-Hander made someone better at killing tanks that would be another thing. But aside from more block strikethrough, I don't know how you would do that. Increased armor penetration on all great weapons? That's a buff that would scale better against tanks than light-armored targets, but it's also still a DPS buff to classes that don't necessarily need it.
Except let me ask you, how many people would really run a 2H tank or want to run a 2h tank in most cases bar SM, a tank tat doesnt provide as much damage as a true mDPS or is cases like chosen, BG loose access to powerful tactics and abilites along with surviveability that strongly hinder there viability

Yes buffing 2Hs is problematic because of mDPS classes but lets not pretend that is most cases 2H tanks are on par with SnB espically as is
Image

Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: Dual Wield and Greatweapon balance

Post#36 » Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:29 pm

Bretin wrote:
Penril wrote:Parry strike through is useful against everyone.
Dual Wielders dont have that problem, because their +10% parry is useful against all classes.
No.
No.
Ok... Casters/rdps don't benefit from parry strike through, just like parry doesnt help against casters/rdps.
Bretin wrote:So, let us see what this 10% parry strikethrough would mean.

A buff to WL. A class with the strongest melee burst potential on order side.
WL doesnt need a buff.
Agreed on this one.
Bretin wrote:SA buff to 2h slayer.
Not viable right now due to a missing tactic.
Good. Maybe we will see less Shatter Limbs/Inevitable Doom Slayers and actually see some other playstyles. Then again, Rampage... so i bet Slayers won't even care about this change.
Bretin wrote:A buff to 2h IB.
Definitely doesnt need a buff.
Tanks give up several toys when choosing 2H over SnB, so i dont see the problem.
Bretin wrote:A buff to 2h SM.
Nice dmg, nice utility, very tanky endgame. Doesnt need a buff.
Same as IB.
Bretin wrote:A buff to 2h kobs.
Which can achieve stats every other class dreams of, no need to buff his dmg.
Same as the other tanks. Also, you can bet your ass this class will be looked at/nerfed/adjusted in some way once we get to T4 (maybe sooner).
Bretin wrote:A buff to black guard.
Strongest 2h tank in the game, dmg wise. No buff needed. Making 2h more attractive wont make up for a kd loss.
Then what is your problem? 5 sec KD >>>>>>>> 10% parry strikethrough, right? Also, same as the other tanks.
Bretin wrote:A buff to black orc.
Strong on 2h already, most of the bo I see are 2h. The dmg is superior to every other tank and even bad mdps if the target doesnt detaunt. No need to buff them.
Same as other tanks. Also, You seez me block dat?.
Bretin wrote:A buff to 2h choppa.
See slayer.
Agreed on this one. However it balances out since WL also received a buff.
Bretin wrote:A buff to chosen.
The only way for mdps to avoid cs is parry for now. Cs is already very strong. Dont buff.
If a Chosen goes 2H CS, he is probably also using Rending Blade (undefendable AoE attack) to apply it, so parry is irrelevant. And even if he hits you, he still needs to crit. Also, SnB = Destined for Victory.
Bretin wrote:I fail to see why this buff is necessary. Especially now where cant even see the full effect.
I wouldnt say it is "necessary" but i don't see any harm in at least TESTING it for a couple weeks.

User avatar
TenTonHammer
Posts: 3806

Re: Dual Wield and Greatweapon balance

Post#37 » Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:36 pm

well said, beat me to the punch but said pretty much everything i would have
Image

User avatar
Shadowgurke
Posts: 618

Re: Dual Wield and Greatweapon balance

Post#38 » Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:46 pm

Bretin wrote:

So, let us see what this 10% parry strikethrough would mean.

A buff to WL. A class with the strongest melee burst potential on order side.
WL doesnt need a buff.

A buff to 2h slayer.
Not viable right now due to a missing tactic.

A buff to 2h IB.
Definitely doesnt need a buff.

A buff to 2h SM.
Nice dmg, nice utility, very tanky endgame. Doesnt need a buff.

A buff to 2h kobs.
Which can achieve stats every other class dreams of, no need to buff his dmg.

A buff to black guard.
Strongest 2h tank in the game, dmg wise. No buff needed. Making 2h more attractive wont make up for a kd loss.

A buff to black orc.
Strong on 2h already, most of the bo I see are 2h. The dmg is superior to every other tank and even bad mdps if the target doesnt detaunt. No need to buff them.

A buff to 2h choppa.
See slayer.

A buff to chosen.
The only way for mdps to avoid cs is parry for now. Cs is already very strong. Dont buff.

I fail to see why this buff is necessary. Especially now where cant even see the full effect.
WL is already pretty strong, agreed. Other than the fact that his main targets are non-parry stacking classes and he is supposed to be behind the target for flanking anyway makes this a rather small buff. Other than that it's the only class that I worry about.

Everything else is just Tanks. And don't tell me 2H tanks are too strong right now, there is a good reason why almost no group does run one and neither does your group. CS main application is Rending Blade, which doesn't get affected by a Parry buff.

Edit: Too late apparently. Basically I agree with Penril
Image

Ads
Tiggo
Former Staff
Posts: 1948

Re: Dual Wield and Greatweapon balance

Post#39 » Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:48 pm

im all for it. make it so ;)
- Martock - Tiggo - Antigonos - Mago - Hamilkar - Melquart
- Smooshie (Destro)

tomato
Posts: 403

Re: Dual Wield and Greatweapon balance

Post#40 » Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:50 pm

zabis wrote:
noisestorm wrote:
zabis wrote:This seems to be another buff to 2h WP, will DW dok be getting any love?
And you gladly ignore that fact that DoK since ever had a 10% parry advantage over the WP? aye sir
And WP has things that DoK doesn't have as well... Are they that out of balance that DPS WP deserves a free aoe detaunt as well as +10% parry strikethrough?
Dps wp will still be garbage while dps dok is viable. Stop crying for the sake of it.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: wardfan220 and 1 guest