[Warrior Priest] - Grace

[Azarael]

If you can tank like a tank, do dmg like a support dmg class and heal like a backline healer you are to strong.

This is a key point to debunk. It's the mistake Mythic made and it's why every single one of their hybrid classes has failed.

This game rewards you for being one thing. It rewards you for being a strong DPS, or a strong tank, or a strong healer. This disadvantage must be made up for by a hybrid class in it contributing more than average in both of its aspects. However, instead, the hybrid class is punished.

Let me explain what I mean.

Let us assume attack damage scales linearly with some attacking stat A and healing scales with some healing stat H. We'll set the time of the engagement to 1 for simplicity, so we can eliminate it from the formula. For the purposes of this demonstration, we assume that damage and heals have equal value. Each class has the same number of stat points in which to put into attacking or healing, to replicate WAR's MAD problems.

Pure DPS output over the course of a battle in which it only does damage: A (all points in attack)
Pure healer output over the course of a battle in which it only heals: H (all points in healing)
50/50 hybrid class over the course of a battle: (A/2)/2 + (H/2)/2 (half points in each)

The relative contribution of the classes to the battle:

Pure DPS: 100%
Pure healer: 100%
Hybrid class: 50%.

The hybrid class will ALWAYS underperform unless it has the same values for A and H that the pure DPS and the pure healer do.

The other problem is that a proper hybrid class is split between dealing damage and healing, with this split being enforced by a mechanic which penalizes using one side for too long. This means that the class can never be the pure healbot or pure DPS that is favoured by the game. This justifies making hybrids grant a greater OVERALL contribution to the battle to excuse their lack of targeted proficiency in one of the two archetypes that is so valuable. Therefore, proper values of A and H for a true hybrid class with the relevant safeguards are HIGHER than the values of A and H required by a pure DPS or healing class, unless the game in question places mechanical value on a hybrid class, which WAR does not.

This is why it is not, in any way, a flaw for a hybrid class to be rendered immune to the effects of MAD AS LONG AS that hybrid class has other mechanics to enforce that it be played as a hybrid, which melee WP and DoK do. They do not have the tools to be anything more than a support DPS, and they cannot power their heals without attacking.

I'm aware that lifetaps are something of an exception to this rule, because they perform both roles at once. I believe this to be adequately compensated for already by the risk of using them.

[Azarael]

SWTOR did the right thing, sorry as I am to tell you this. Classes with targeted proficiency use only one stat. ONLY hybrids with proficiencies in two aspects are affected and destroyed by having separate stats for each proficiency. Unless a game itself compensates for the MAD by giving you access to twice the number of points to spec into each proficiency (which is still a potential solution), SWTOR's approach is solid.

[Vigfuss]

waronlinebuilder.org - Disciple of Khaine build

This was a common dps spec for DoK, it provides some group utility, damage, and can actually heal for a lot. All healing is affected by strength (rend soul) and strength / Weapon Skill (transfer essence). There were some other tactics you might use depending on your group.

It's not really underpowered, but needs support from it's group, mainly guard. The biggest problem you run into is when your group needs to disengage, and they need you to heal them at the same time. Your second biggest problem is being a high priority target. Another problem is that real dps classes do the job a bit better or also more easily.

If the AoE detaunt will not require a tactic to use, it might be taking this a bit too far.

[Atropik]

...

If you didn't read the topic, don't post in it. This isn't about DPS WP and I specifically addressed it not being about DPS WP in one of my posts.

And Im not about DPS Wp too, Im about fact you can do nothing to solve "other then salvation WP healin" problems without rework class mechanics(salvWP and other healclasses mechanics too ). All ability fixes would just make WP a bit stronger in smallscale roam/dueling, nothing more.

And yes, you absolutely right, WHO rewards only "pure" classes, but not "hybrids" like offensive tanks, meleeSWs, 2h WPs, so the best solution must be - make grace WP pure mdps class, according too IMPERAH PRIESTS fun-club we have.

For sure, we have private server on its current alfa stage, but 2h WP is not the best example for such kinds of experiments, one wrong move and we have overpowered deathmachine, which is still almost useless anywhere else except smallscale roam/dueling

[ThePollie]

make grace WP pure mdps class

No. I am absolutely against this. You could possible make Wrath closer to a focused melee DPS, but Grace is and should always remain our melee-healing mastery tree. Even Wrath still has access to Divine Assault, which even without mastery points can heal for a respectable amount of health.

[Atropik]

lets vote

[sweetest]

ahh nothin like writing a big post and having it get deleted as you push submit.

The way mythic intended the WP class to work is simple

Salvation - pure healer
Grace - melee dmg/support , backup heals and buffs for the group
Wrath - dmg tree, to compete with other mdps roles

which is pretty much how it actually plays out in game right now except, Wrath mastery tree skills are for the most part garbage and we struggle to support in a lot of situations because of our lack of gap closers or ability to stick on a target.

I don't think we need our healing buffed at all. I think our healing is perfectly fine the way it is right now and if you were to buff it you could easily make us overpowered. here is an example.

yesterday I was at the tavern defending it with a guild group
grace/dps wp (me)
a swordmaster
an engineer

1 full group of destro showed up with a few extras (8) and a fight ensued inside the tavern that lasted for about 5 minutes, we survived the fight and killed all 8 destro with our engineer actually disconnecting in the last 30 seconds, the only reason we were able to accomplish this was because not only was i doing good dmg alongside my engi and swordmaster while im calling targets but i was simultaneously healing the **** out of my whole group, DA the engi back to full hp, 550 hp sigmars radiance x4 to fill me and the swordmaster up etc.

I was able to heal through this group of 8 myself easily. Some of them werent max level. but i think regardless of that a group of 3 beating a group of 8 without a real dedicated healer actually shows something.

I think the right way to fix the class would be
Sigmar's Shield buff
Perhaps the 2h aoe detaunt suggested by aza earlier in the thread

MOST IMPORTANTLY OF ALL a way to catch up and melee people to support the group. whether this be mirroring over the DoK snare of giving WP's some kind of charge like ability. That is my only weakness atm. being kited.



EDIT: and for all the people saying there is no reason to take a 2h wp over a regular dps in a group, MAYBE if you're playing for money and trying to run some elitist 6v6 group that has a 97.77% chance to win each engagement then maybe you don't wanna take a dps wp.

however, there have been countless situations where me and my group (usually not even a full group) have survived incredible odds just because of my ability to put out spot heals and save peoples life in a pinch , where as if i were playing a WL or WH or something I wouldn't be able to do that, the group mate would die and we would lose.

[Luth]

Spoiler:

waronlinebuilder.org - Disciple of Khaine build

This was a common dps spec for DoK, it provides some group utility, damage, and can actually heal for a lot. All healing is affected by strength (rend soul) and strength / Weapon Skill (transfer essence). There were some other tactics you might use depending on your group.

It's not really underpowered, but needs support from it's group, mainly guard. The biggest problem you run into is when your group needs to disengage, and they need you to heal them at the same time. Your second biggest problem is being a high priority target. Another problem is that real dps classes do the job a bit better or also more easily.

If the AoE detaunt will not require a tactic to use, it might be taking this a bit too far.

This topic is not about DPS WPs, it's about healing while in meleerange. The point of this topic is that melee WPs should be capable to fill a healer slot in a group. This means they need to be somewhat independent from a dedicated guard tank babysitting them. It also means they will in no way do any noticable damage compared with a real damage dealer.
Everything i just wrote was stated here several times already and aza clearly asked to read the topic before posting in it.
Also: Why the dok spec? That doesn't help a bit here.

[sweetest]

This topic is not about DPS WPs, it's about healing while in meleerange. The point of this topic is that melee WPs should be capable to fill a healer slot in a group. This means they need to be somewhat independent from a dedicated guard tank babysitting them. It also means they will in no way do any noticable damage compared with a real damage dealer.
Everything i just wrote was stated here several times already and aza clearly asked to read the topic before posting in it.
Also: Why the dok spec? That doesn't help a bit here.

boy do i hope you are wrong, because i don't think anyone will ever want to take a melee healer in a healer slot even if they were buffed, the spot for a 2h wp is always going to be a dps slot.

I think the term "DPS WP" has just gotten this really bad image from being used so much. can we just say 2h WP from now on?

2h WPs are not meant to be pure healers. they are meant to be melee dmg with group support. simple as that.

EDIT: And regardless of what spec a WP plays. 1h, 2h. grace. salvation or wrath doesn't matter. they always should be healing people. they always should be throwing out healing hand and always using DA to heal up group members. there will never be some "pure dps" warrior priest

[Scottx125]

Problem is for a melee support healer to be of any use on the front lines it needs 3 things, survival, damage and endurance. It needs survival in order to stay alive as long as possible which is essential since it is a healer class supporting team mates and itself, its survival is also directly effected by damage as its damage is the main source of its healing, and if its damage is too low or is interrupted, the WP is dead and of no use. A WP damage is also effected by its endurance, if too many abilities suck AP compared to RF, then the WP will eventually grind to a halt not being able to produce enough AP to land attacks to build RF, which reduces damage which reduces healing reducing suitability and usefulness on the front lines. In fact if you look at it all 3 aspects directly support each other, since the WP must survive for long periods of time if it is to do any means of significant damage, so its a real mess. It must have those 3 aspects, without being OP... I don't envy the task you have ahead of you xD.