[Slayer] Retribution

[peterthepan3]

A 1k heal every minute from a DPS class that offers unrivaled sustained DPS, in the form of a core ability to boot? Something tells me that isn't a good idea...

Order already has access to some wounds buffs via WP/RP.

[Wyzard]

1k heal is overstating it. The ability would give a stacking 100 health every second that

A) the slayer is channeling and not dpsing
B) the slayer is being focused with melee dmg
C) no one throws a taunt or other interrupt on extremely obvious spell effect
D) the slayer is not already dead

Regardless of whether it’s a heal or a debuff or some other stat debuff, all these criteria require the boon to be something meaningful if you don’t want the ability to just be something most slayers will only bother activating to impress friends while hanging out in altdorf.

I’m not hell bent on the wounds buff either, but what of the second suggestion i made, the heal debuff?

[Torgrimmerr]

Spoiler:

Personally I see the ability as dead, and should be removed, and as a slayer which I am, i dont use it and if its buff, still wont, so to me this discussion a mute point. No offence guys. Just giving a Slayer's view point.

This doesn't add anything to the discussion whatsoever. - ptp3

[peterthepan3]

I’m not hell bent on the wounds buff either, but what of the second suggestion i made, the heal debuff?

As said already, the Slayer has access to a heal debuff. Also, a core AoE heal debuff? Available to all specs? No thanks.

[Grock]

I disagree with most suggestions that were made in the thread, most of them are looking to change ability's functionality way too much from what it always was and i feel that is not required - it can be made strong and useful with much lesser changes.

I wanted to make my own proposal for this ability but every time i wanna do it someone manages to do it shortly before me...



I did some testing just to be sure about current functionality:

Spoiler:

It can be blocked and parried, it can crit and proc on-hit effects, but it does not proc if incoming attack was ranged or defended.

The ICD is per proc, rather than per target. If you are getting hit by 2 enemies you hit only one of them per second.
Some people claim that on live it was actually proccing off of ranged attacks, but afaik there is no proof source for that yet.

Some fluff regarding its concept and function:

Spoiler:

The idea of the ability seems to be to either force enemy to drop aggro, or to punish them for focusing you, but with current implementation that is impossible.

It should turn Choppa/Slayer into an angry hedgehog: it doesn't do much itself, but you'll hurt yourself if you bite it.

Also with current implementation this ability is at its most useful in 1v1 situations, but even then it actually deals less damage than any spammable single target ability. At 38lvl(13 points in Skaven) it deals 520 damage, while Pulverizing Strike 25lvl (0 points in Giant) deals 526 damage and reduces enemy's Toughness.

My suggestion to improve this ability while conserving its classic functionality::
1. Allow it to proc on defended attacks
2. Allow it to proc on ranged attacks
3. Instead of internal cooldown make it like this: "Each target can only be hit once per second". This is AoE tree after all.
4. Make its hits undefendable.
5. Remove dual wield requirement because 2h needs love.

Reasoning for #4:
Slayers will already have this function via Rampage, but Choppas won't.
The undefendable hits is what would let this ability work.
Without undefendable most enemies will be able to just brute-force through it without taking much damage: melee enemies got parry and block, ranged enemies usually have more per-hit damage due to cast time scaling, and then there's entire armor/toughness thing which Choppa/Slayer usually have little of. So in most situatons you'll take more than return.

For people concerned that it will make slayer/choppa stronger in certain play environment: the goal of this entire discussion is to make the ability strong enough to become useful, this will unavoidably add new power to the class, making it stronger in some aspects, but i believe in case of this ability it isn't as big of a problem because its effects can quite reliably countered - by interrupts and switching the target.

[gke96]

How about greatly increasing its damage and not changing anything else?

[Reesh]

Spoiler:

I disagree with most suggestions that were made in the thread, most of them are looking to change ability's functionality way too much from what it always was and i feel that is not required - it can be made strong and useful with much lesser changes.

I wanted to make my own proposal for this ability but every time i wanna do it someone manages to do it shortly before me...



I did some testing just to be sure about current functionality:

Spoiler:

It can be blocked and parried, it can crit and proc on-hit effects, but it does not proc if incoming attack was ranged or defended.

The ICD is per proc, rather than per target. If you are getting hit by 2 enemies you hit only one of them per second.
Some people claim that on live it was actually proccing off of ranged attacks, but afaik there is no proof source for that yet.

Some fluff regarding its concept and function:

Spoiler:

The idea of the ability seems to be to either force enemy to drop aggro, or to punish them for focusing you, but with current implementation that is impossible.

It should turn Choppa/Slayer into an angry hedgehog: it doesn't do much itself, but you'll hurt yourself if you bite it.

Also with current implementation this ability is at its most useful in 1v1 situations, but even then it actually deals less damage than any spammable single target ability. At 38lvl(13 points in Skaven) it deals 520 damage, while Pulverizing Strike 25lvl (0 points in Giant) deals 526 damage and reduces enemy's Toughness.

My suggestion to improve this ability while conserving its classic functionality::
1. Allow it to proc on defended attacks
2. Allow it to proc on ranged attacks
3. Instead of internal cooldown make it like this: "Each target can only be hit once per second". This is AoE tree after all.
4. Make its hits undefendable.
5. Remove dual wield requirement because 2h needs love.

Reasoning for #4:
Slayers will already have this function via Rampage, but Choppas won't.
The undefendable hits is what would let this ability work.
Without undefendable most enemies will be able to just brute-force through it without taking much damage: melee enemies got parry and block, ranged enemies usually have more per-hit damage due to cast time scaling, and then there's entire armor/toughness thing which Choppa/Slayer usually have little of. So in most situatons you'll take more than return.

For people concerned that it will make slayer/choppa stronger in certain play environment: the goal of this entire discussion is to make the ability strong enough to become useful, this will unavoidably add new power to the class, making it stronger in some aspects, but i believe in case of this ability it isn't as big of a problem because its effects can quite reliably countered - by interrupts and switching the target.

Well written and thought post. It summs pretty much every issue of the ability as well as all the things I had in mind, besides those that I already wrote.

I agree with everything, besides removing the weapon requirement, 2h of sl/ch has to be fixed internally on another level, as that tree focuses on quick and big bursts.

[Bozzax]

Problem as I see it slayers cant get this buff on top of id/ramp/sl

[Tesq]

Spoiler:

I disagree with most suggestions that were made in the thread, most of them are looking to change ability's functionality way too much from what it always was and i feel that is not required - it can be made strong and useful with much lesser changes.

I wanted to make my own proposal for this ability but every time i wanna do it someone manages to do it shortly before me...



I did some testing just to be sure about current functionality:

Spoiler:

It can be blocked and parried, it can crit and proc on-hit effects, but it does not proc if incoming attack was ranged or defended.

The ICD is per proc, rather than per target. If you are getting hit by 2 enemies you hit only one of them per second.
Some people claim that on live it was actually proccing off of ranged attacks, but afaik there is no proof source for that yet.

Some fluff regarding its concept and function:

Spoiler:

The idea of the ability seems to be to either force enemy to drop aggro, or to punish them for focusing you, but with current implementation that is impossible.

It should turn Choppa/Slayer into an angry hedgehog: it doesn't do much itself, but you'll hurt yourself if you bite it.

Also with current implementation this ability is at its most useful in 1v1 situations, but even then it actually deals less damage than any spammable single target ability. At 38lvl(13 points in Skaven) it deals 520 damage, while Pulverizing Strike 25lvl (0 points in Giant) deals 526 damage and reduces enemy's Toughness.

My suggestion to improve this ability while conserving its classic functionality::
1. Allow it to proc on defended attacks
2. Allow it to proc on ranged attacks
3. Instead of internal cooldown make it like this: "Each target can only be hit once per second". This is AoE tree after all.
4. Make its hits undefendable.
5. Remove dual wield requirement because 2h needs love.

Reasoning for #4:
Slayers will already have this function via Rampage, but Choppas won't.
The undefendable hits is what would let this ability work.
Without undefendable most enemies will be able to just brute-force through it without taking much damage: melee enemies got parry and block, ranged enemies usually have more per-hit damage due to cast time scaling, and then there's entire armor/toughness thing which Choppa/Slayer usually have little of. So in most situatons you'll take more than return.

For people concerned that it will make slayer/choppa stronger in certain play environment: the goal of this entire discussion is to make the ability strong enough to become useful, this will unavoidably add new power to the class, making it stronger in some aspects, but i believe in case of this ability it isn't as big of a problem because its effects can quite reliably countered - by interrupts and switching the target.

Well written and thought post. It summs pretty much every issue of the ability as well as all the things I had in mind, besides those that I already wrote.

I agree with everything, besides removing the weapon requirement, 2h of sl/ch has to be fixed internally on another level, as that tree focuses on quick and big bursts.

Exept the fact that any proposal for change an Internal CD proc to external CD to allow skill to work with a target cap aoe based on self proc was always rejected.

I would be the first to say, make it proc from any attack and do dmg if target is in x feet with an external cd.

But unless torq came here and surprise us i dont think it gona happen.

[Grock]

Well written and thought post. It summs pretty much every issue of the ability as well as all the things I had in mind, besides those that I already wrote.

I agree with everything, besides removing the weapon requirement, 2h of sl/ch has to be fixed internally on another level, as that tree focuses on quick and big bursts.

Exept the fact that any proposal for change an Internal CD proc to external CD to allow skill to work with a target cap aoe based on self proc was always rejected.

I would be the first to say, make it proc from any attack and do dmg if target is in x feet with an external cd.

But unless torq came here and surprise us i dont think it gona happen.

IIRC there were technical difficulties implementing that, but IMO its better to overcome them and preserve original ability, than trying to make it into something entirely different.
Original idea of returning damage on incoming attack fits Slayer/Choppa's aggressive berserky playstyle really nice, but it should be useful against multiple enemies in one way or another

I could see it being something like channeled avoidance buff (akin to Slayer's Whirling Axes ability in Total War), but I'm pretty sure any serious wb/6man player will say it has good change to make slayer/choppa too powerful, although i really like the concept of it