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Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

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Ysaran
Posts: 619

Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#51 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:31 am

is this thread going to be moderated? i mean: i see very few feedback and a lot of whine, in addition a lot of derailing too (my post included)

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wargrimnir
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Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#52 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:52 am

Ysaran wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:31 am
is this thread going to be moderated? i mean: i see very few feedback and a lot of whine, in addition a lot of derailing too (my post included)
I've removed a couple people, but I'm not actively moderating it.

Everything gets read, so if you make good points it will matter. It's kind of up to the community to make the best of the BDF while we're willing to push changes through here. Very easy to just go back to not talking about changes at all...
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wonshot
Posts: 618

Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#53 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:25 pm

Just waiting for the other archtypes, to compare all of this. Cant really say much more before the rest of the pieces to the puzzle have been shown
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Tiamath
Posts: 52

Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#54 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:28 pm

Hi
in Malekiths Name's change is that minor that still wont make BG to spec full Anguish to oRVR. Change in my opinion offers too little to spec Anguish.
Recently I proposed in DE forum Anguish overhaul to make that tree viable but it was dealt rather harshly :)

Raze in 2h only, why we really put classes to archetypes? Leave it with SnB too so shieldbeares have some sweeping power.
Khaines Warding - agree with DanielWinner.
Blast of Hatred - interesting but I think still not enough to forsake ADM.
Next stop? The frontline ...
Tiamath - RR82 Blackguard, Khaladh of Kar Khadath Regiment.

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Ramasee
Posts: 457

Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#55 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:29 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:59 pm
M3 - Clear the Skies - NEW

Previous - Grants a Hold the Line buff to your group for 12s - rejected
Proposed - Grants a 3000pt Absorb for Magic/Ranged damage for group members within 100' for 12s - Shield Required

The thought behind a shield-only morale was to provide defenses to your group. Using Hold The Line was a bit lazy and considering tanks already have this available and spammed pretty frequently during warband situations didn't really fit the need. Also some people assumed we were removing the existing Hold The Line ability, which was not the case. It was just a placeholder name as it would carry a similar effect. Alternatively, a 3000pt ranged damage absorb will allow a push into funnel situations, excluding melee from the absorb allows counterplay from the frontline. This will not negate morale damage.
Should this not be equal to another M3 group absorb that has restricted nature? Such as the healer M3 for example (4500 against melee only), or are their plans to reduce that one's value

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Ramasee
Posts: 457

Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#56 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:50 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:59 pm
Black Orc

snip

M4 - Can't Touch Us - Tank Tree

Current - 100' party buff, +200 AP and 4500 absorb for 15s
Unchanged

The initial proposal was to make sure this is equivalent to the Swordmaster M4, but spec points in the tree weren't taken into consideration at the time. Why spec points matter for an ability at the top of the tree doesn't make a lot of sense, but the effects do match anyway. If anything we may clear up the tooltip to reflect the fully specced effect of the ability, along with other M4's. There's no reason for the tooltips to scale in the tree if they're already at the top.
Real quick; there is in fact a reason for tooltips to scale in the tree if they are at the top. You can for example get an M4 as early as r31. This would make the morale (or 15pt ability) be rank 35 or rank 36 I believe, Also the fact that morale scale by rank also improves all those r48 bolstered people.
wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:59 pm


M4 - Yer Nothin' - Utility Tree

Current - 1800dmg over 12s and enemies lose "30 seconds" of morale over 12 seconds within 30'
Proposed - Reduce user speed by 50%, deal 300 damage per second for 8 seconds and knockback players 3' within 20' while this is being channeled. Knockback does not trigger immunities.

As an M4, we're hoping to see a fairly visceral impact when you press the button. This alternative would be similar to the Squig Herder charge ability, allowing the BO to become an unstoppable force and push straight through a funnel knocking everyone out of the way and ticking some decent morale damage in the process.
This one is actually kind of cool and uniqueish fitting the flavor of the class. Query; does it honor preexisting immunities the way Zealot punt does?
wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:59 pm

M3 - Deafening Bellow

Current - 1200 damage within 30' and a 5s silence
Proposed - 1500 damage within 30' and a 1s buildup time for 10s

Damage bumped up, but we're keeping the buildup time debuff. This is instant damage, so the effectiveness would be better than Raze for burst damage which would give Black Orc one of the better M3's for damage spikes. Based on the inital feedback over buildup time, I don't feel enough explanation was given. The 1s buildup time would apply to all abilities, even instant casts would have a short buildup time, which would cause a rather annoying (for the enemy) cast bar on anything they try to do. Even with the GCD being less time than the buildup, the delay imposed would interfere with melee attacks and instant casts that rely on being able to chain abilities together.
Disorients (flat increases to build up time) were truly despised on live. It slows the game down to a terrible crawl. Nearly every ability including instant cast "melee" ones can be pushbacked by damage. So in an environment where you receive multiple hits every second; a 1s cast can be pushed to be longer than a 1.5s cast (the GCD). The main issue with this would be that with a 10s duration, you can rotate these as your warband does things such as wrecking ball to essentially shut down the enemy entirely. Also can drop some AoE interupts into the effected order crowd as well.
wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:59 pm

M2 - Walk It Off

Current - 100' party buff, increase Toughness by 160 for 30s
Proposed - 100' party buff, reduce incoming crit damage by 25% for 20s

The scaling effectiveness of a Toughness buff on your party, even when stacking with other Toughness buffs. Crit damage reduction would play a significant role in damage mitigation no matter what stage of the game you're in. Also, reducing the buff duration from 30s to 20s is more appropriate for the use of an M2. This will be one of many themes as we go through poking at each of the Morales up for discussion.
Your statement is backwards according to precursory math and knowledge. 160 toughness plays a significant role in damage reduction no matter what stage of the game (gearing) you're in. Whereas critical damage received reduction's value changes based on your value of initiative and reduced chance to be crit (which generally go up as you gear) and the crit rates of the enemy.

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Ramasee
Posts: 457

Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#57 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:01 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:59 pm
Chosen
Spoiler:
M4 - Warping Embrace - DPS Tree

Current - 40' line, 369dmg ?? with a 40% snare for 15s
Proposed - 40' line, 1200dmg with a 40% snare for 15s

This was probably supposed to be a DoT ticking for 369 damage every couple of seconds, but it really is set to 369 flat damage in the client, so who knows what Mythic was thinking with this one. 1200 instant damage with a nice beefy snare is much more appropriate.
Very similar to the BO one in the dps trees; yet the damage values are completely different? Is this an oversight? Idk chosen that well sogoing to leave the rest of those out and just combo this with another class.
wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:59 pm

Blackguard

M4 - Khaine's Warding - Tank Tree

Current - 100' party buff, when any group member blocks heal group for 1200, 10s duration
Proposed - 100' party buff, increase all avoidance by 20% for 10s, BG also receives 3000pt absorb for 10s and 100 Hate

The existing M4 was rather odd to have on a tank, and the block requirement was rather limiting as you might be the only tank in the group wielding a cookie sheet. A flat avoidance buff provides a more immediate benefit for the group, and true to form with the Blackguard they get a smaller absorb bubble and Hate refill for themselves.
I understand the logic of the change due the blocking nature. However, I would never spec for or slot this proposed as an M4 over even the new ID. Whereas in certain group compositions such as 2 snb tanks and a sacrifice dok (bc shields) I may have been tempted to take the current since it works on any group member's block.

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Ramasee
Posts: 457

Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#58 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:23 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:59 pm
Ironbreaker

M4 - Strength in Numbers - Tank tree

Current - 100% Block on self, 25% avoidance for party within 100' for 10s
Proposed - 100% Block on self, 20% avoidance for party within 100' for 10s

Full group avoidance effects are really strong, so we're paring this back ever so slightly to fit with other M4's.
Reduced ID is still more beneficial to the group than this. You would think that 1% damage mitigation = 1% avoidance; but that's not actually true. Simply because it is easier to heal through constant lesser damage than it is to heal through spikey damage like what avoidance can provide. The only time I could think of using this would be in PvE due to the 100% self block in addition to group benefit. But I also can just use shield wall for myself and ID for the group when needed.
wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:59 pm

M3 - Gromril Plating

Current - 7200 absorb for 20s
Unchanged

Boring! But effective! I would personally think Plating would be something related to armor, but it's just a self absorb bubble. Is that all we need here? Mind you, adding anything to the existing effect would take away from the absorb partially, or entirely depending on the suggestion. This seems fine however.
The absorb is fine. If you want a more name appropriate suggestion you can toss the absorb in favor of armor/all resistances buff. Plating specially of the dwarven kind is often designed to resist the effects of magic in the lore so you would be fine there. You also can drop this to 2 in relation (wth appropriate downscaling) to what I'm going to say about Skin of Iron.
wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:59 pm

M2 - Skin of Iron

Current - Damage reduced to 1 for 5s
Proposed - 10s self buff, when attacked in melee disarm attacker for 5s

The existing implementation certainly had some positive feedback (expected as the invlunerability effect is obviously very strong), but there was also some significant confusion about what we meant. Part of what we wanted to change here was the invlunerability factor. Even with Shield Wall, you can still get hit from behind, and this is only an M2. Total damage immunity is pretty questionable for any effect. Limiting the effect to melee attackers would give more coverage than shield wall in the sense that any direction is affected, also prevents attacks from peeling off you and hitting your mates (if they disarmed after the first hit). This wouldn't affect ranged units, which leaves another window of opportunity open for the enemy realm. It's still very much a defensive tool, isn't total cheese, and provides a benefit for your melee groupmates as well as yourself.
Disarms provide immunity. That is the biggest downfall of the proposed morale change. Makes this morale less useful; completely disallows from 2 IBs to be using it or in conjunction with other CC morales (but at least most of those others deal damage too; unlike this one)
Skin of Iron has half the duration of Shield Wall which was the main opportunity cost. Also competed with Raze from same spot. You can move it to M3 unchanged as way to make sure its the appropriate power level.

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Ramasee
Posts: 457

Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#59 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:35 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:59 pm
Knight of the Blazing Sun

M4 - Flawless Defense - Tank Tree

Current - 100' party buff, increase all avoidance by 50% for 10s
Proposed - 100' party buff, increase all avoidance by 30% for 10s

50% is too damn high! Relative to other tank morales anyway. Sure they don't get anything for themselves, but at 30% it's still the strongest group avoidance buff in the game.
See all the other feedback on avoidance morales versus ID
wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:59 pm

M4 - Solar Flare - Utility Tree

Current - 30' PBAOE, deal 1200 damage and drain all morale from nearby enemies.
Proposed - 30' PBAOE, deal 1200 damage and drain 1200 morale from nearby enemies.

Let's just bring this down a big fat notch. In situations where Solar Flare is going to be specced for and used, a 1200pt morale drain will do handle more than enough disruption to make a push into an enemy group. ALL morale is a silly amount. Keep in mind that Blackguard is getting a straight mirror of this ability as well. Can you perform the same job with _only_ a 1200pt morale drain? Absolutely.
Long overdue; no one should have a full morale removal.
wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:59 pm

Swordmaster

M4 - Shadow Blades - Utility Tree

Current - 30' PBAOE, 1800 damage over 12s (~500x4 at 2-4s?), -28 morale per second note: broken / mitigated damage
Proposed - 30' PBAOE channel, 2700 damage over 9s (900x3 ticks at 3s), Pull up to 4 random targets up to 45' away to the center - ignores immunities.

Something about spinning around with a big sword just seems right. This is a pull effect similar to Choppa, the damage is significant as it's an interruptible channel. Ideally we would have the first pull go off before the damage starts ticking, and the last pull line up with the last tick. This would grab random players within 45', getting lucky means pulling in players that are outside the 30' damage radius.
Feel like this would be better swapped with the path of khaine's specced M4. Pulling people to you is more dps-oriented than knocking people away. People also generally dislike pulls; and putting this into path of khaine is much less likely to see it used in ORvR.
On a personal note, I despise pulls and think that the only AoE ones should be on magus/engi so I will leave out any more feedback on this one.

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Parallell86
Posts: 73

Re: Tank Morale Overhaul Thread v2

Post#60 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:37 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:59 pm
M4 - Yer Nothin' - Utility Tree

Current - 1800dmg over 12s and enemies lose "30 seconds" of morale over 12 seconds within 30'
Proposed - Reduce user speed by 50%, deal 300 damage per second for 8 seconds and knockback players 3' within 20' while this is being channeled. Knockback does not trigger immunities.

As an M4, we're hoping to see a fairly visceral impact when you press the button. This alternative would be similar to the Squig Herder charge ability, allowing the BO to become an unstoppable force and push straight through a funnel knocking everyone out of the way and ticking some decent morale damage in the process.
This ability, the well known Zealot punt ability, now proposed to be implemented on a Destro tank.

This morale ability means but few things to the game:


- A destro funnel (keeps and forts typically), will hardly ever be broken. Because anytime order try to push, they are not getting passed the f-in doorway due to never ending punts.

- An order funnel (keeps and forts typically) will hardly ever hold. When destro ever so wishes, they build morales and send in the Black orcs, trashing the entire funnel formation and pouring into the keep/fort. As if the situation wasnt bad enough already with the broken choppa pulls amongst many other factors.


"But dude it's a M4 ability." Well yes, unfortunately for order, Black orcs also have a core tactic that grants them wicked morale upon blocking. The class with the highest block rate in the game. They hit M4 before anyone else does.

That ability is, I said it before but, REDICILOUS! It undermines EVERY OTHER nerf you've proposed so far.

Destro bias proposals.

BUFF THE WH MORALE DRAIN TACTIC TO MATCH THE MARAUDER.
Last edited by Parallell86 on Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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