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[Dev] Tank morale overhaul

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Bozzax
Posts: 2477

Re: Tank morale overhaul

Post#21 » Tue May 07, 2019 7:37 pm

My .2€

Breaking out morales and looking at them in isolation is wrong.

Example the parry M1 on BO that is there bc of lacking party abilities. Or Glom plate that rly should be restored as an IB M3 group absorb (wrong call to reduce IB uti by ol devs) Wings of H is there bc of lacking ability snare.

M4s and raze needs luv tho and dont think you should enforce weapon restrictions. Just weaken them and test that first mebbe?

(Main problem atm is the changes in snares and added pounces/shadowsteps etc)
Last edited by Bozzax on Tue May 07, 2019 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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Morf
Posts: 1247

Re: Tank morale overhaul

Post#22 » Tue May 07, 2019 7:44 pm

Sorry Natherul but there is so much wrong with what u wrote, i dont see the point in going into detail because its never taken into consideration anyway, just labeled as whining or trouble making.

Dont fix what aint broken and listen to those who understand the game, you should know who these ppl are by now.
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criollo
Posts: 55

Re: Tank morale overhaul

Post#23 » Tue May 07, 2019 8:01 pm

Natherul wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 5:42 pm Hello all.

This is the first post of a series to overhaul morales for all careers where it's needed [...]
Nope. Nope nope nope.

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Last edited by criollo on Tue May 07, 2019 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: Tank morale overhaul

Post#24 » Tue May 07, 2019 8:05 pm

generals for tanks :

m3 hold the line:
-no because it would be too good in conjunction with with skill htl
-no aswell even if you have to rework base hold the line skill, dont touch that at max increase the number of stack requried for max ammount (aka need more tanks for max buff on others plus ....still not really any need when meta rvr build is for order x5 bw, x1 slayer, x1 engi.......)

m3 raze: mixed feeling, but i suppose if 2h need help in wb , yes but if remain a moral 3 we dont need more nuke in m2.

m2 distracting bellow: absolutely NO the skill is alredy ranged you do not require to be melee to use it and is a perfect 30 radius around main target which is alredy the best form of aoe effect in this case since you can effect 9 dps behind enemy front line if you really need instead the first 9 ppl in front of you ( mostly tanks), in small scale is exeptional good to buff s+b utility as it is. The 35% reduction probably in line for a moral 2 but as it is now its currently a great tool for s+b in small scale post swap with raze onto m3 think only to a % nerf maybe since is m2 but make sure to not lwoer it too much.

m4 immaculate defense, meh work worst than in live i suspect it dont stack with other dmg reduction source such armor and res since the dmg i take under m4 are way higher than in live but well...lower it to 60% will not make off m4 more interesting especially when push inside bottleneck is stilla thing. anyway this is the less worst of all the bad change (not all abd just of those bad is teh less bad it can be tested with less/no conseguences)

Black ork:

m1 quit yer squabbling is fine idk why you want change this, 10% for 30 sec to all group is alredy a prettty good morale and work both on 2h and s+b plus the rework would indirect buff order melee train and hit rdps again...rpds do not need to be penalized and black ork alredy have a 1 sec interrupt/knock up with "on your jiddle" this is totaly un-need seriusly.

m2: walk it off, another unjustified change, it's a 30 sec buff stacking with chosen or bo buff it's definetly good and we dont need more armor in rvr order physical rdps are alredy penalized enough plus 25% crit reduction to ALL group is absurd, bg bring a st 20% debuff onto 2 ppl every 10 sec this will just make ppl immune to crit when is basically 1/3 of any small scale encoutner.

m3 deafening bellow: yes too good but with dmg, a 5 sec durationas been think for kobs m3 no escape fit a lot better, remember they can still move and pot and tanks can putn and defend silenced healers etc, maybe lower it to 4 sec but definetly what make it better than raze was the dmg output (channeled /interruptable dmg vs ista).

chosen:

m4 warping embrace: mixed feeling dmg was not crap it have an effect which last 15 sec instead general 10 and the effect is a crow controll whih cannot be cleanse but only removed via skill which you usually use for root altough there is no mass root like kobs no escape on des.The mastery is **** due cripplestrike/rending blade nerf into oblivion may want to revisit those before buff m4 be cautious.

m2 tzeench amplification: no this is definetly NOT bad, it's argumentaly one fo the ebst def morales in game as ib/slayer immunity morales unless you go solo around....which anyway you can use potions to work in conjuntion with it or heal aura. (designer note couldpotentialy say that mara is too much def with GoM and miss a def m2 good enough to finishe the cross mirroring , mara/chosen/slayer/IB: these classes shares a lot of assets more than nerf this, mara gom should be nerfed and a m2 should be buff to these types of immunity/hyper heal increase as per my proposal in balance forum / pending review taking dust (as chosen oppression fix sigh)...

BG:

m4 Blast of hatred, dmg was crap yes yet it coudl had been scaled better anyway new one is ok but is redundant bg alredy have a racial aoe punt and if aoe punt you dont do it for dmg so no point take a m4 with punt when m2 alredy provide it.

m4: khaines warding: your analysis is wrong it heal all group for every block by 800 raw on text, if it was implemente differently need a fix not a rewamp: aka 10 block per sec in rvr = 8000K heal per tank (2 tnks mean 16k) if is 1 sec ICD is 800 per sec (with 2 tanks is 1600 ) to all group every 1 sec, was worth a increase to 15 sec or increase to 1k heal instead rewamp imo...

m4 in malekit name: the rework is BROKEN UTTERLY--> 10 sec **** CD INCREASE?! really 10!!!!!!!!!! maybe is wrong formatted you mean 5 for 10 sec i hope, btw this moral is fine (if bo moral 3 it was too good as m3 and this is a m4 it should be good ..... why are you changing due being bad?)

m3 armor of eternal servitude, ok but dont remove armor buff maybe 7200 is too much,that is alredy a moral 3 single component; make it 4400/4800

m1 banish weakes: you SERIOUS !?!?!?!?!?!? this IS the only thing which allow a bg to survive the first seconds of focus before be full buffed in orvr in 2h builds dont ever think about this please the moral is super good in any group play at any level , yes solo it suck compared to kobs m1 who cares?

KOBS

m4 flawless defense: mm 1200 on how much they were? anyway yes total moral remove is too much in bottleneck sich (which are everytime what decide if you win or not a zone /fortress etc) i agree.

m3 no escape: finally 900 dmg with 5 sec duration (but dont break on dmg) exatly how this should be, finaly.

m1 emperor champion: NO please you alredy wronged once by give tanks (ALL) an immunity to snare on sentinel and **** sake if something has been learned from RD experiment is NEVER AGAIN GIVE SNARE IMMUNITY TO TANKS. You also packed it a 20% this is oltragious to any sensed man which played this game, if you have to.... look at something else please...

Swordmaster:

m2 wings of heaven, i fully disagree what is wrong with this morale is not the gap closer its:
-snare of 60% indtead 40% as normal debuff skill
-snare duration being 10 sec instead 5 as other morales should be since eff are not cleanable

Please dont kill synergy just put em in line as wrote for chosen m2 in this case there are other stuff to touch, pounce should be treated as equal as kd and so should have 20 sec CD not 10 (which under cd reduction became 5...) and shadowstep of Melee sw should aswell being 20 sec; i see no coldown on ror builder, correct me if its wrong.

m1 guard of steel: the currently implementation is bad due the m1 lasting only 10 sec, if it could be increased to 30 sec like BO moral 1 it would make a lot of sense; anyway +800 armor partywide is utterly broken for a moral 1 BUFF (and i wanna underlinening "buff" if it was a debuff it would be fine but a buff on top of potions partywide? nonononono!).

ironbreaker:

m2 skin of iron: this is an extemly good moral wha are you talkign about? block is frontal on shield wall this is a 360% degree blolck instead basicaly , half the duration for double radius perfectly balanced !! and is pretty good even in place of block since kd and focus from behind happen, if you use this pre kd you are safe while not with shield wall.

M1 Rock Clutch: perfect change now it will be more even vs champion challenge ( and not armor debuff...have to add this 5 sec nerf should also happen on mara/wl root m1).

m4 Earthen renewal: NO NO NO NO possible after the bg 10sec cd increase the most broken thing you could pull of, 400 dmg back for 10 sec? any SM player know well that the m3 which do 600 dmg is letal the only thin which balance it is that it last only till you absorb 3600 poitn of dmg (aka you can prolong by parry/dodge/disrupt it but still is ok) so have auto 10 sec of 400 dmg back is increadible BROKEN just for hold the line meanwhile!!! just do some math nath! if there are 10 hits in 10 sec it would be 4k morales dmg!!!!! image if this do 400 without 1 sec icd it's all over when an ib get m4. We are not talking about pre-mitigation 4k we are talkign about un-mitigated dmg here!
Last edited by Tesq on Tue May 07, 2019 11:15 pm, edited 19 times in total.
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Tankbeardz
Posts: 627

Re: Tank morale overhaul

Post#25 » Tue May 07, 2019 8:23 pm

M2
Emperor's Champion: Total rework. Removes all CC (like juggernaut), CC immune and 20% move speed for 10 sec. Original implementation was simply too strong, giving too much “free” stats on something that you can in practice under the best conditions have a 50% uptime on. Instead it will be a ability to make you close to impossible to escape from.

I'm not sure how anyone is missing RD for knights with a quicker cooldown (no RR investment) and a 20% speed boost (10 seconds!) being an issue. In fact, it's probably much better since it removes CC like Focused Mind.
Last edited by Tankbeardz on Tue May 07, 2019 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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zupaH
Posts: 55

Re: Tank morale overhaul

Post#26 » Tue May 07, 2019 8:39 pm

A lot of these changes don't seem very thought out lol
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Aurandilaz
Posts: 1896

Re: Tank morale overhaul

Post#27 » Tue May 07, 2019 8:56 pm

The opening proposal is full of holes and arguments based on false information or lack thereof. It doesn't take into account specific "class DNA" and how certain morales provide synergy between other classes of their respective sides, and how they can be gamechangers or fight winners when properly used at right moment. Ripping that DNA and throwing it into a garbage can and then stirring it a bit and puking it all out, doesn't make the game better.
You would need specific new forum threads for each unique class with their unique playstyles to determine how said class needs its morales adjusted.


you need to look in details at each class separately;
-is this class mainly for WB or for smallscale
-which morales is it using in said environment, and more specifically, why that morale
-is said morale in question underperforming/overperforming, and does changing it in certain way actually validate even running said morale - no need to make change if doesn't alter existing status quo at all
-then, how would this/that change alter existing meta gameplay and would it risk causing one side to gain too much or lose too much
-then comes question of things like M4s - assuming current morale scaler rates and how you only have M4 up in forts, are they ever worth speccing - if not, why bother changing them in the first place

SM WoH is vital part of Order warband synergy, so I can only scratch my head at the opening proposal. Chosen M2 is also absurdly good, so I'm scratching my head more. Several others that also cause me to scratch my head more, but I'm gonna stop here before I start bleeding.

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wachlarz
Posts: 798

Re: Tank morale overhaul

Post#28 » Tue May 07, 2019 9:01 pm

Collateral wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 6:50 pm Well I guess we won't be seeing raze in rvr anymore. I think zerg melting will be virtually impossible now, as reaching m4 is simply unrealistic to expect. We will see. But some of the m4s look interesting.

The bo m1 is really weird. Bo already has a 5s silence that can crit for big numbers also, so what would make you use this morale (you can also use a tactic that reduces it's cd and increases the damage)? I think the previous version was a lot better, it's not like bo needs much single target utility (I don't really know what made you think that, and what exactly you mean by that). If we are talking about 2h bo, he needs defenses. And the m1 was useful since it gave you a parry buff that stacked with other buffs; parry being the one thing bo really lacks compared to all other 2h tanks. Plus, it was a group buff also, which goes in line with bo role in a party, group support tank (among other things). I hope you will reconsider this change, or at least that you realize what I'm talking about, and try to give bo something in the defensive department in return.
Agree

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Martok
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Re: Tank morale overhaul

Post#29 » Tue May 07, 2019 9:06 pm

WExWH wrote: Tue May 07, 2019 6:37 pmM2 the pounce one was of the unique and enjoyable moral, sad to see it removed

Yeah, me too. Given the Wings of Heaven morale is a morale ability, the time factor between each use should be the over-riding concern in context of removing it as opposed to the fact it mirrors a particular White Lion spec. Meaning the use of Wings is far more restricted than Pounce, and thus, in my opinion, should be retained as is.
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zgolec
Posts: 753

Re: Tank morale overhaul

Post#30 » Tue May 07, 2019 9:46 pm

Removed dbl spirit debuff.
WODS given to others...
Now m2 removal?
Whats next? WW removal?

Lets just make it quicker and remove SM? Less work for ya...
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CH 77 / BG 6X / BO 6X / WE 6X / MAG 6X ...and others.

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