DOK & WP| Melee Heal & Melee DPS Roles

[Panodil]

Looks like some people think DoK does same damage as other mdps, thats not true ofc.
They do good damage and ok heals when torture specced. you get very good HD, extra res, a little bit more heals but lose damage if you bring DoK as mdps.

[Rockalypse]

DoK 40/62
This one I agree with:

Specialozation but The thng is as follow, each. Mastery ahould provide a role

Caster Heal
Melee heal
Dmg

But the builds are not based on role. Build options should be as follow:

-Primary heal and secondary melee heal= backline healer with few melee heal option

-Primary melee heal and secondary heal= front line healer

-Primary melee heals and secondary dmg = low profile dmg dealer with a lot or self survability /potentialy utility (like def mara).

-Primary dmg and secondary melee heals= true damage dealer, less burst and pnly some.self survabiloty heals.

13 pt skills and 9pt tactics builds as to enable difference in builds and to enforce those builds.

Edit: ah yes last thing even if dok is better i think wp as of currently may fit more my feedback.

For now I myself play in frontline healer spec as listed above.
If you choose to introduce overhaul you will end up with months of playertest and will probably end up in position where you'd have to balance combinations, yes they will be different than what we have now, but you will basicly delay problemsolving till that time.
For what you have now - only thing you need to do is gather information which combinations are over\under performing and then work this out, choice is obvios imo.

Best and easiest way to do it will be changing numers here and there, here are some examples (some are already listed, but still):

*Direct heals on DD spec: if you feel that DD is healing too much - you can change % trade in divine fury and such (but this won't affect lifetaps, so probably of no consequence, as direct heals are already pretty bad on DD as they are now)

*Lifetap heals on DD spec: before even touching this you first need to give a thought to path of Sacrifice pt11 tactic Empowered transfer and part of skill discription that 50% of damage dealed with it goes into heal even without tactic:

With this in place I can't see how you can take damage away from melee heal spec.
My solution to this part is - buff damage of Cleave Soul ability to be better than Transferr Essence damagewise (this one most people just throw away from their hotbar after gaining access to transfer essence), take away group healing part of Transfer Essence, or reduce it significantly if Empowered transfer tactic is not equipped.
This will lead to less group utility of DD DoK, but will give it damage edge over melee healing spec.


Thats my 5 cents, Hybridization is the only way.

[GoshDarn]

I used to play a spec on live with more healing stats, heal crit, willpower, and also defensive stats, for survival. With that you would be wielding 2 swords or a great hammer though. So all heal/survival stats, but frontline. You would maintain your career resource by hitting the melee lifetap, and it would also give some base heals while also regening for you. Slotting utility tactics like heal debuff on crit, and 20% increased healing on def target on crit, but you still have all healing stats so you are using first tree, group heal etc.. really no offensive stats, only using offensive abilities for utility, base heals, and resource regen.

This offered me an alternative play style for the class without having to deal damage, as I have played it since 2010, and it gets boring after awhile just sitting backlines. It was nice still only doing 10k damage, but having nice heals, often outhealing other healers, and you get the utility of the melee base tactics/abilities. Possibly change something to make a spec like this more viable, that would be interesting. For the WP i was using the sigmar hammer 50% reduced cast time, and focused mind combo is instant cast group heals, so you are running with a 2hander, 25% heal crit, instant casts lol DOK spamming heal debuff, but also spamming heals for group.. I had tons of fun.

[Valarion]

My vote is to leave them the hell alone until every other facet of the game is fixed first.

In terms of overall parity these classes are almost perfect and are literally the last two classes that need to be touched. Im also deeply skeptical that WP isnt going to come out ahead of Dok with these adjustments. Perhaps this is because I'd like to see more Destro moderators or that I see another sledgehammer coming to fix things or Im just a cynical asshole that only sees the worst in people.

However, the real problem, is with the unintended issues that WILL surface:

First, this game doesnt need another buffed dps class right now. From the perspective of a veteran healer, dps and FF is all ready out of control and they havent even released the new gear yet.

Second, imagine a world where every shitty fotm AM is dpsing instead of healing. Now imagine a world where every shitty WP is also dpsing too. Now imagine a world where there are no healers left.

[Aurandilaz]

Another question that is very much related regarding any buff towards dps WP;
classic setting is that WP has stronger healing, lesser dps - DoK has lesser healer, stronger dps.
Now if you want to make dps WP somehow better, you would have to ensure their mirror retains either minor advantages, or straight out also buff DoK healing, so that DOK=WP equal in both dmg and healing. (instead of WP>>DOK in heals but WP=DOK in dmg)
Which then might lead to further problems when it comes to larger RvR balance.

Another point, OP presents in some arguments that all classes must be viable in some way at smallscale and both largescale, that is a functioning spec for WB and 6v6.
Currently DoK+WP already have functioning backline heal spec, which allows them to land a role as a healer in both WB and 6man.
Should one class then for some reasons, get both solid wb heal spec, 6man heal spec, 6man dps spec, and WB dps sec... when some other classes as we know already suffering from being far more limited when it comes to their endgame specs and in which scale they can be considered effective (such as WH/WE still trash at WB and limited to smallscale, or Engi/Magus being whatever the fudge they are, or SM which close to being broken due to multiple tactic bugs and state of "how do i shieldmaster").

Dok/Wp function in smallscalle on some level, obviously they cannot never be as good at dpsing as A C T U A L dps classes that simply cannot get cookies like Rez, Self Hot, Self instant heal, AoE Punt, Focused Mind, CLEANSE, or mechanic based potent dmg-heal channel that does non-physical dmg, Covenants/Prayers for extra group utility and access to things like AoE detaunt with 100% uptime, WP possible access to woundsbuff, DoK access to best inc healdebuff in the game because it's guaranteed to sticking to targets that DoK is hitting.
Unless there is some real locking out from various tools mentioned above, a class that can melee-heal just should never ever be allowed to be catch up with the actual damaging output that "lesser" simpler dps classes do.

Look at the dps AMs as an example, it's pretty solid now, and suddenly people realize they can just instead of rolling a suicidal BW or weaksauce SW, they can pick Orders best (general utility + damage) ST ranged dps who neither has suicide mode nor explodes like ragdoll-Legolas (when not entering +4k armor absurd melee stance).

[siflisk]

40/44 Grace WP

I would love a few small tweaks.

My biggest concern is itemization. As a melee WP I need tank stats, and I will be mixing sets and getting a lot of willpower that I'd rather have as strength to get the toughness and wounds that I want.

If I had the following I'd be super happy:
1) 100 ft range restored on sigmars grace
2) Greave of sigmar toughness counting as tactic toughness and stacking with potions/abilities/etc
3) Conqueror set that gave strength instead of willpower (+10% parry/Dodge/disrupt super nice)

I have 520 toughness now and plan to have ~850 when geared. Also plan to have about 140 more wounds than I have now.

When I die it's cause I get in over my head or get caster bombed (toughness should help this). I have been having a lot of fun and don't feel that I am that far away from where I should be when I get my gear.

[Mystry]

In terms of overall parity these classes are almost perfect and are literally the last two classes that need to be touched. Im also deeply skeptical that WP isnt going to come out ahead of Dok with these adjustments.

Second, imagine a world where every shitty fotm AM is dpsing instead of healing. Now imagine a world where every shitty WP is also dpsing too. Now imagine a world where there are no healers left.

Firstly you're objectively wrong. DPS DoK is at least functional. DPS WP is practically worthless because A. they don't get a free 10% parry from dual wield and B. they don't get twice the covenant/prayer procs because of, again, dual wielding, and C. they don't get the same amount of stats because, you guessed it, dual wielding.
A good 80% of the source of the disparity between WP and DoK is because of dual wield.

Also people who want to DPS are going to DPS. You might as well get used to that, or try and get the devs to just remove wrath and arguably grace altogether.

[Wdova]

I voted for specialization. 1 tree more oriented on backline healing, 1 tree more oriented for melee healing, and one tree more oriented on melee DPS will be great. Sure WP spec in more than 1 tree so mixing all of these will be on personal taste. Dont have WP on RoR, so just my 2 cents.

[Bozzax]

I wonder how many of those spec votes actually play the classes on a regular basis (as melee).

From my pov playing multiple mdps and rdps moving from a hybrid to spec pure dps feels like a complete loss.

1.There already are 3 specialized pure mdps on each side. Making it 4 while killing 1/2 of hybrid dps (shmy, am, dok, wp) simply means less diversity overall.

2. Having 2 ”pure” heal specs one tanky low dps melee one BL doesn’t really add value. BL always will outshine melee heals in most situations (cant kite and heal ,easy to shut down, requires a guard).

3. Worst case you kill multiple 1/1 and 1/1/1 man hybrid setups and gain just one more pure 2/2/2 setup. (Note both wp/dok already make 2/2/2 roster as BL healer)

[Tholkienn]

Looks like some people think DoK does same damage as other mdps, thats not true ofc.
They do good damage and ok heals when torture specced. you get very good HD, extra res, a little bit more heals but lose damage if you bring DoK as mdps.

But they can heal debuff in aoe...