Should tanks have the same DPS offspec option as healers?

[Culexus]

The “DPS tanks are too fragile” thread has been locked for some reason, so I thought I'd make a new thread to explore this idea.

Currently, besides many trying to make it work, DPS tank is not a thing. A DPS tank is just a crappy tank. The question is, should it be a thing?

With the healer balance patch, all healers now have a group-viable DPS spec that allows them to abandon their role as healers in a group and count as DPS when queuing for scenarios. Tanks on the other hand must always fulfil their role as a tank, with no option of playing a true offspec being available to them.

There was a discussion on Discord a while back about how this could be made to work, as for a tank to be a true DPS it would have to lose the abilities that make it a tank in the first place. They would, however, just as healers, still need to retain their identity as a tank offspec. This is where FO fails as a tactic, as not only does it not give enough of a damage bonus for a true DPS spec, but the tradeoff of basically being reduced to medium armour on a class without the survivability tools of DPS or healers, always makes it unviable. Compare this to healers that gain 25% damage while keeping 80% of their healing numbers as well as rez, cleanse, etc., they’re just not comparable.

The idea was floated that a reworked FO could give the same 25% damage as healers, but instead of the 33% armour reduction, they lose the ability to guard, challenge, and punt. This would then enable tanks to truly spec for damage as they can no longer fulfill their duties as a tank. It allows them to count as DPS for scenarios, while still keeping some of their toughness in the same way healers keep their kit while filling a DPS slot.

This of course immediately raises the balance question "why would you ever take a normal DPS when you could take a DPS in heavy armour?” Well, the same question could be asked for DPS healers “Why would you take a normal DPS when you can take a DPS that can heal, cleanse, and rez?” The answer to the former will be the same as the latter; they’re balanced in a way that they’re an option, but not an auto-include, as there are trade-offs to consider when putting a group together.

Doing this also raises the concern that it'll become harder to find tanks, as many players will switch to DPS. However, when I raised this in the Discord discussion, it was rightly pointed out to me that players who want to play a DPS tank are going to do it anyway. At least this way they're not screwing over the rest of their team when they do it.

Now, my personal view of class balance is that each class should play out the role of its archetype, with offspecs being a hybrid way of playing that archetype rather than a fully different role. However, as we’ve seen from the healer patches, that ship has sailed. So with the healer rework allowing healers to switch roles, should tanks join them?

***I know asking this on this forum is probably pointless, but please keep any discussion to group play and wider server health. Yes, this would be great for tanks in solo roam, just as it has been for DPS healers, but let's try not to derail this thread into a solo balance discussion. There’s a 30+ page Witch Elf thread for that***

[Rille]

I wouldnt mind if tanks could go DPS, however I would also be happy if they could just get back some of the dmg they have lost.

Example: all channels beind reduced in DMG aswell as all proccs being heavely affected by them no longer stacking with dmg increasers such as taunt, greatweapon mastery etc. that was a flat 40% dmg loss on things like skull thumper, loudmouth, PE, EA, and more

[galaxgal]

I'd rather have 2H tanks fulfill a clear-cut role that still features Taunt and Guard and for all armor-reducing talents and setbonuses to be replaced with something else

[noronn]

This of course immediately raises the balance question "why would you ever take a normal DPS when you could take a DPS in heavy armour?” Well, the same question could be asked for DPS healers “Why would you take a normal DPS when you can take a DPS that can heal, cleanse, and rez?” The answer to the former will be the same as the latter; they’re balanced in a way that they’re an option, but not an auto-include, as there are trade-offs to consider when putting a group together.

Well hate to break it to you but in small scale dps healers ARE already an auto include in every group imaginable because they are so overtuned.

[Starx]

Losing guard challenge and punt for a 25% damage increase? I dont even think it would be worth a 50% damage increase. Guard and challenge are like top 5 most powerful non morale abilities in the game and punt is the only real counter for guard.

DPS healers are even worse than dps tanks are atm. DPS tanks at least retain virtually everything that makes a tank a tank, while dps healers are at best a true hybrid class that are difficult or very niche to play around, not something that is easily plug and play.

Im all for changing focused offense, its a terrible tactic and the downside is really bad. But I really dont see anything wrong atm with 2h offensively specced tanks, they blow snb in almost every case out of the water in smaller scale content if they have the gear to cover stats they need.

And as far as tactics are concerned, id say like half if not more of the tactics in game for every class are and have been abysmal dogcrap for time immemorial.

[Lescargo]

I must apologize for my overreaction on the original thread, which led to its closure. I was selfish.

Thank you for starting a new thread. I voted, of course. I don't know what you think about making Focused Offense deal some +% damage when attacking from the side or back? Obviously, without any penalty (using Focused Offense already consumes a slot for one defensive tactic you'll not use then, such as Rugged, so it's already a form of defensive penalty in itself).

Also, I'm not in favor of removing Guard, Punt, and Challenge just for 25% more damage. I'm not against the idea of ​​removing some of these abilities, but not just for +25%.

It's worth remembering that +25% on damage that's already quite low doesn't really make a big difference. +25% on a true DPS is something, and that's where it starts to become interesting. But tanks have abysmal base damage.
There can be tradeoffs with penalties, but the percentage needs to be adjusted.

[Florian90210]

Don't need to change much, just buff FO damage and lower debuff part. Also BG and IB need buff for their dps spec, they are too weak as dps.

[vanbuinen77]

They would need a cc break thats ten sec immunity and a gap closer

[nebelwerfer]

I think focused offense could simply reduce the amount of damage guard(and whatnot) absorbs by 25% and it'd be in a pretty good spot?

To buff them more than that, id give taunt stacks too, so it'd rack up damage overtime.

Other than that, i'd be cautious to encroach too much on the trifecta of tank/healer/dps - though experimentation on hybrids should be encouraged. Its fun.

[DirkDaring]

The actual creators of the game, Mythic, made all the classes here just like they did in Dark Age of Camelot, every class was able to be played more than one way, and even placed different gear sets in the game to make it easier for players if they wanted to play a different way, and still be effective.

It was only here after the group of people that took over the game after it closed down on live, that stuff started to change, removing skills they didn`t like, completely creating new ones, changing trees to prevent certain builds etc. I remember when they wanted to make 2H tanks not be able to guard as they didn`t like 2h tanks

Just because you are using a 2H, doesn`t mean you are squishy, on live a lot of 2H tanks were wearing defensive sets, or they were using a mix of defensive, and offensive sets , not glass cannon

But as they told us in a forum post back in 2017 it is their game not ours, and they don`t care if anyone ever plays it or not.

I played DAOC, I played Warhammer on live from day 1 of launch, and here on and off since January 2016. The direction the game has been going, is part of the reason I`ve been away almost 4 years. and most likely why I`ll not stay as well.