Time To Kill - with guard! What is your feeling about it?

[lumpi33]

Hey there!

I'm interested in your current feelings about TTK - Time To Kill. Which means how long it takes to kill someone or how good you are surviving vs others.

Do you think that players are dying to quickly or do you have the feeling that it takes too long to kill someone?

Since it makes a lot of a difference if there is a tank with guard I make two polls. One about killing targets that have guard and one without.

This vote is about killing players with guard. If you are lets say a healer then it means how do you feel about surviving with guard.

This is just about your personal feeling in everyday pvp.

Make your vote

[Nameless]

it is not solely the guard that keep ppl alive. It is tank`s tools like punt, kd, slow, challange, various def morals and so on.
It is same as to say that heal is too strong. Nope by itself healing is decent at best but when combined with all deff tools on the table you could end up at never ending 6v6 fights that ranked had

[salazarn]

Honestly I think the issue is more that healers just spread heal too much, especially in scenarios and that healer detaunt is too effective for them.

Still anything that makes this game lets "2/2/2 and win" is generally a bonus for me

[lumpi33]

Still anything that makes this game lets "2/2/2 and win" is generally a bonus for me

you mean less "2/2/2"? yeah, that's basically also my wish.

The 2/2/2 group synergies are so strong that it makes everything outside of it much weaker. A premade discord group no matter which composition already has the advantage of better coordination over a group that doesn't have that. Giving them all that guard, group heals, etc. of a 2/2/2 on top is just too powerful to have fun fights against pugs. It's neither fun for the premade nor the pug group.

Im all for weakening these group synergies to have longer lasting fun fights. Their gear and coordination would still give them an edge. That should be enough. At the same time it would strengthen smaller skirmishes, instead of having auto win for 2/2/2 groups.

Warbands of 2/2/2 with discord and rr80+ people are even worse. They are roaming around and mowing over everything that is in their way before these smaller groups or solos can even form bigger ones. It is basically killing action in the rvr lakes.

[amputationsaw]

this game just has way too many abilities who play into income dmg. tons of Attribute raising or reducing skills that we throw at each other. a 6v6 with decent players mostly ends up with zero kills.

[gersy]

no change is needed. when playing properly ST damage is very high, even not including morale usage.

with a proper kill attempt utilizing KD on kill target, KD on offtank to ensure he cannot swap guard and punt on kill target's guard to take him out of range combined with your healers using stagger/silence on enemy healers you can easily "go around" guard and net kills.

if you're beating on a guarded target without doing any of these things and expecting him to die, then getting upset with the game because he isn't dying 100% of the time, you are simply playing the game wrong and you/your group need to learn how to do proper go's.

and to those who say "pugs cannot perform this" or "not everyone wants to try so hard to earn kills" well.. it's a teamplay based game and this is the intentional design to score kills.

intention that is continually reinforced by foundational game design as well as years of balance changes (both live and here) to cultivate a unique gameplay loop (archetype holy trinity with tanks having a large role and a focus on coordination and teamplay) that cannot quite be replicated in any other mmo and is what makes this one so interesting to many of us.

[Keula]

Guard is Fine.

The 2/2/2 group synergies are so strong that it makes everything outside of it much weaker. A premade discord group no matter which composition already has the advantage of better coordination over a group that doesn't have that. Giving them all that guard, group heals, etc. of a 2/2/2 on top is just too powerful to have fun fights against pugs. It's neither fun for the premade nor the pug group.

So pugs don't have guard or groupheals? Like the button just goes away if you're not in premade? Interesting, I guess I've been cheating this whole time guarding and group healing pugs, my bad, I'll stop.
If you're point is that pug vs premade, the premade almost always wins... well duh, what did you expect? No amount of nerfs/changes will ever change that.

Im all for weakening these group synergies to have longer lasting fun fights. Their gear and coordination would still give them an edge. That should be enough. At the same time it would strengthen smaller skirmishes, instead of having auto win for 2/2/2 groups.

What is "these" group synergies aside from guard? Group healing/absorbs?? Explain how nerfing either of these results in longer fights and not shorter ones, or near-impossible ones in terms of taking a fort. Are we gonna nerf dmg next as well casue it's too high afterward, and then realize wounds are too high and neverending nerf cycle begins.

Warbands of 2/2/2 with discord and rr80+ people are even worse. They are roaming around and mowing over everything that is in their way before these smaller groups or solos can even form bigger ones. It is basically killing action in the rvr lakes.

Yea and? So being a good player who has played this game long and increased their skill and is in group cause they learned that being in a group is good thing, in a group game(i know, wild right?) is now... bad?
wat
I don't get this one at all, like are ppl just suppose to stop playing the game when to hit 80, in an MMO, or what?
Is this whole post just another premades=bad, and you just want to go back to 2009 when no1 knew how to play but you kinda did so you felt like a god slaughtering noobs, I know I did, but then those pesky premades got in the way.

[gisborne]

The problem is you're trying to kill 2 guarded targets when you only have 2 dps. It's your own fault for playing 2/2/2 if you want to complain about ttk being too long. You think if you bring only 2 dps you should be able to kill a guarded target that is being healed by 2 healers in 6v6?

Try 1 tank 3 dps 2 healers. Or 2 tank 3 dps 1 healer.

[wonshot]

Interesting topic, I voted for "its just fine"
Not because I think TTK couldnt be tweeked, it could.
But because I actually like Guard to be strong.

When Guard is a strong ability, that also makes punting strong. Which gives pvp-tanking relevancy to the gameplay.
If your friendly tanks succesfully punts away the kill-target's guard that punt is removing a 50% damagereduction effect leading to big killpressure. That is very cool and what makes pvp-tanking being a thing in this game vs just being a tanky bear-druid taking forever to kill but not really doing much (vague example I hope it still holds)

First of all, the survivability in RoR is based round a game TTK where 2-2-2 is the go-to. Four of those six players are supports, where the tanks can contribute to killpressure with armor debuffs, knockdowns, buff removal, punts. on top of their supportive duties which is almost the exact opposite of what I just mentioned with buffs, mitigation, absorbs, challenges/guard.
Just for the sake of the debate, I think its also worth mentioning that Detauns and guards doesnt stack. Which is why DPS are usually guarded as if they were pressing their detaunts they could should eiter stop dpsing to not break that detaunt mitigation, or they would instantly lose their detaunt mitigation by continously dpsing after detaunting. That is why healers most often go tanky, rely more on detaunting, facing any incoming backattacking dps to even further lowering the intake on top of fairly overtuned baseline heal spells (to combat healdebuffs) Healers can continue doing their job while detaunting incoming damagedealers, damagedealers cant.

So with all of that said. I think Guard is fine as if, so is Detaunt and Healdebuffs, CC etc.
What coooould be addressed to change TTK in a pillowfight 2-2-2 where four out of six in each group are supports, would maybe be to reduce the baseline on heal abilities and increase the scaling to push us out of the Armortalisman stacking meta. So faster targetaasist swaps would lead to more pressure. Or making more of the healing per second come from HoTs or have more fragile setbacks on healers when they get dogpiled on.
(counter argument to this would be back when Cities were happening alot more from the RvR community. The feedback I often heard in balanced city instances from Warband players is that they disliked going city because it was often a test of enemy ST groups going around popping healers untill a snowball moment was created. L2P issues for sure but it lead to alot of healers not enjoying the gamemode as they were the maintargets and often exposed as weaklinks)

Previously on RoR there was a massive outcry when the devs suggested 2handed guard to be reduced to 25% instead of 50%.
A wild thought would be to make guard% scale between 25-50% based on for example toughness or wounds brackets. But that might just create a gab between entry levle and BiS tanks. This is why this game is so hard to change balancing on, because it affects Scenarios, pugs vs pug, premade vs premade, pug vs premade. RvR 12man, rvr 24man, rvr zerg vs zerg, lotd, solo etc.

At the end of the day, a full defensive tank only doing Hold the line aura botting is providing 50% mitigation to his guarded dps. But if that same player starts walking around enemy tanks and super punting them to break the enemy guard-range that is a whole lot of offensive pressure while you fulfil the tank fantasy.

[salazarn]

Guard is Fine.


So pugs don't have guard or groupheals? Like the button just goes away if you're not in premade? Interesting, I guess I've been cheating this whole time guarding and group healing pugs, my bad, I'll stop.
If you're point is that pug vs premade, the premade almost always wins... well duh, what did you expect? No amount of nerfs/changes will ever change that.


What is "these" group synergies aside from guard? Group healing/absorbs?? Explain how nerfing either of these results in longer fights and not shorter ones, or near-impossible ones in terms of taking a fort. Are we gonna nerf dmg next as well casue it's too high afterward, and then realize wounds are too high and neverending nerf cycle begins.

Yea and? So being a good player who has played this game long and increased their skill and is in group cause they learned that being in a group is good thing, in a group game(i know, wild right?) is now... bad?

It is really not high skill to fine tune your groups so they are 2/2/2 and then press party heal and whiled a guarded mdps presses 2 button aoes.

And if this game wants to attract people that are new and fresh to it they obviously will need to tone down the synergies involved in the 2/2/2. People, most people just want to log on and play a game. They do not want to join a discord or finegle groups or spend 10 mins looking for 5 healers.

You shouldnt get to autowin people just because you have the right classes in ur setup.