Lots of Numbers: Top100 players

[lumpi33]

I count only 19 destro players in the top 100 win list, can balance really be that bad?

Can't use this list to make any conclusions about balance. Solo players not on it. People that run in pairs not on it. Who is on this list? Premades that play together all the time, and farm sc's.

Maybe it has nothing to do with balance of any sort but out of the top 100 players with the best win ratio, over 80% are order.
That is still remarkable.

I think that only means that Order has more hardcore premades than Destro. And I think it's safe to say that the most successful comps are prefering certain classes. It's not hard to see that they are mostly using mdps comps.

If you look at my last post "Lots of Numbers: SC by Side" you can see that the Order vs Destro balance isn't that bad at all. Here:

SC STANDARD/T4 - Order SCs rounds won: 7394 of 13596
SC STANDARD/T4 - Destro SCs rounds won: 6202 of 13596
SC STANDARD/T4 - Order dominating SC with > 3x Destro kills done: 4655 of 13596
SC STANDARD/T4 - Destro dominating SC with > 3x Order kills done: 4122 of 13596
SC STANDARD/T4 - Balanced SCs (neither dominating, kills <= 3x other kills): 4819 of 13596

Yes Order is winning slightly more but it looks pretty balanced to me. Nobody can balance this game in a way to have it exactly at 50:50. There are way too many factors having an impact on the outcome. e.g. player skill, which you cannot balance.

The lists I have posted here are mainly hardcore premade players. Of course. It is a Top100 list. You don't have that win rate as pug player.

I tried to pick these players on purpose to see how the most successful players are performing regarding damage, avg damage, kills, etc.

It's more about what the best players are capable to do which a class than anything else.

[sioding]

Nice...

...
The lists I have posted here are mainly hardcore premade players. Of course.

i am inside these lists with my tank. I see myself now as a hardcore premade one. Feels good.
Joking aside - its like always - having pure data doesn't always mean you can say: Ahhh thats the problem.

I like the fact that some data is available and it can help to underpin decisions.

[TreefAM]

A lot of the win list people are just the same people on both factions + different characters.

[Phantasm]

A lot of the win list people are just the same people on both factions + different characters.

To understand weaknesses of other classes you need to play them.
I`m really proud of Mat. Hes a real master. Which class he touch it turns gold.

[lumpi33]

Nice...

...
The lists I have posted here are mainly hardcore premade players. Of course.

i am inside these lists with my tank. I see myself now as a hardcore premade one. Feels good.
Joking aside - its like always - having pure data doesn't always mean you can say: Ahhh thats the problem.

I like the fact that some data is available and it can help to underpin decisions.

Yes, it's actually very hard to dig decision making data out of there.

The only thing that was kind of surprising and shocking to me was how often scenarios are one-sided in t4:

SC STANDARD/T4 - Order dominating SC with > 3x Destro kills done: 4655 of 13596
SC STANDARD/T4 - Destro dominating SC with > 3x Order kills done: 4122 of 13596
SC STANDARD/T4 - Balanced SCs (neither dominating, kills <= 3x other kills): 4819 of 13596

That basically means that only 1/3 of the time there was a rather balanced fight going on and 2/3 of the time one side steam-rolled the other.

Looking at the win rates of the TOP100 players Id say that the steam-rolling is mostly caused by them.

Im not a fan of that premades stomping through the SCs. Especially the event SC.

[lumpi33]

A lot of the win list people are just the same people on both factions + different characters.

To understand weaknesses of other classes you need to play them.
I`m really proud of Mat. Hes a real master. Which class he touch it turns gold.

It also means that the doesn't enter a SC without perfect comp

Winning is not that hard if you play a strong class in a group of verterans with great support and probably discord.

[Phantasm]

Spoiler:

Nice...

...
The lists I have posted here are mainly hardcore premade players. Of course.

i am inside these lists with my tank. I see myself now as a hardcore premade one. Feels good.
Joking aside - its like always - having pure data doesn't always mean you can say: Ahhh thats the problem.

I like the fact that some data is available and it can help to underpin decisions.

Yes, it's actually very hard to dig decision making data out of there.

The only thing that was kind of surprising and shocking to me was how often scenarios are one-sided in t4:

SC STANDARD/T4 - Order dominating SC with > 3x Destro kills done: 4655 of 13596
SC STANDARD/T4 - Destro dominating SC with > 3x Order kills done: 4122 of 13596
SC STANDARD/T4 - Balanced SCs (neither dominating, kills <= 3x other kills): 4819 of 13596

That basically means that only 1/3 of the time there was a rather balanced fight going on and 2/3 of the time one side steam-rolled the other.

Looking at the win rates of the TOP100 players Id say that the steam-rolling is mostly caused by them.

Im not a fan of that premades stomping through the SCs. Especially the event SC.

I hope your post and results will help devs to extend ranked scenario pairing system to whole scenario scene. Wouldnt it be a breath of fresh air if sc players could queue solo only into one bracket and all 3+ man groups into premade brackets. With a nice queue UI, so ppl wont waste 1hr queue as 20th dps class.

[lumpi33]

I hope your post and results will help devs to extend ranked scenario pairing system to whole scenario scene. Wouldnt it be a breath of fresh air if sc players could queue solo only into one bracket and all 3+ man groups into premade brackets. With a nice queue UI, so ppl wont waste 1hr queue as 20th dps class.

Yeah, that would be a great idea.

From the data I can tell that there are roughly 1/4 tanks, 1/4 healers and 1/2 dps playing T4 SCs on average:

SC STANDARD/T4 - Order avg % of tanks in SC: 25,11
SC STANDARD/T4 - Destro avg % of tanks in SC: 25,7
SC STANDARD/T4 - Order avg % of healers in SC: 29,52
SC STANDARD/T4 - Destro avg % of healers in SC: 29,44
SC STANDARD/T4 - Order avg % of dps in SC: 45,37
SC STANDARD/T4 - Destro avg % of dps in SC: 44,86
SC STANDARD/T4 - Order avg % of mdps in SC: 24,95
SC STANDARD/T4 - Destro avg % of mdps in SC: 23,7
SC STANDARD/T4 - Order avg % of rdps in SC (SW as rpds): 20,42
SC STANDARD/T4 - Destro avg % of rdps in SC (SH as rdps): 21,17

That means if they would create a SOLO_RANDOM SC mode where people could only queue solo and would be put in SC groups with >= 1/6 tanks, >= 1/6 healers and >= 1/3 dps then we would get pops pretty fast and would have pretty decent fights. So you could get a 2/2/2 comp or 1/4/1 or 2/3/1 or 1/3/2 or 3/2/1 or 1/2/3. Most likely a 1 tank/4 dps/1 healer or 1/3/2. That is fine I think to put up a good fight.

We don't need a fancy UI for that. Just add it as queue option like SOLO_RANKED and do the group building in the background. The scenario map for SOLO_RANDOM would be random as well and it could take solo queuing players from the STANDARD scenario pool. The popping map would be limited to the map the STANDARD queuers had selected then. Since they most likely queued the event SC, the event SC would be the most popping map for all solo queuers. Which is fine I guess.

I think the scenarios should be the place to go for the quick action without having to search for a group first. Like if you have 1hour to play you want to get action fast not waste a big chunk of that time just to find a group.

Something should be done about T4 SCs. Most players having more fun in T1 SCs than in T4 SCs and if you are looking at the numbers, it is not surprising:

SC STANDARD/T1 - Order dominating SC with > 3x Destro kills done: 917 of 4443
SC STANDARD/T1 - Destro dominating SC with > 3x Order kills done: 826 of 4443
SC STANDARD/T1 - Balanced SCs (neither dominating, kills <= 3x other kills): 2700 of 4443

More than 1/2 of the SCs in T1 are rather balanced. Less premades. More random. More fun.

[emiliorv]

Can't use this list to make any conclusions about balance. Solo players not on it. People that run in pairs not on it. Who is on this list? Premades that play together all the time, and farm sc's.

Maybe it has nothing to do with balance of any sort but out of the top 100 players with the best win ratio, over 80% are order.
That is still remarkable.

I think that only means that Order has more hardcore premades than Destro. And I think it's safe to say that the most successful comps are prefering certain classes. It's not hard to see that they are mostly using mdps comps.

If you look at my last post "Lots of Numbers: SC by Side" you can see that the Order vs Destro balance isn't that bad at all. Here:

SC STANDARD/T4 - Order SCs rounds won: 7394 of 13596
SC STANDARD/T4 - Destro SCs rounds won: 6202 of 13596

Pretty balanced??...order won 1.192 rounds more than destro => thats a +19´2% winrate above the 6202 destro wins...doesnt look "pretty balanced" to me....where start the imbalance??

43% OF TOP 100 AVG DMG are slayers...wtf! this is balanced too?

[lumpi33]

Maybe it has nothing to do with balance of any sort but out of the top 100 players with the best win ratio, over 80% are order.
That is still remarkable.

I think that only means that Order has more hardcore premades than Destro. And I think it's safe to say that the most successful comps are prefering certain classes. It's not hard to see that they are mostly using mdps comps.

If you look at my last post "Lots of Numbers: SC by Side" you can see that the Order vs Destro balance isn't that bad at all. Here:

SC STANDARD/T4 - Order SCs rounds won: 7394 of 13596
SC STANDARD/T4 - Destro SCs rounds won: 6202 of 13596

Pretty balanced??...order won 1.192 rounds more than destro => thats a +19´2% winrate above the 6202 destro wins...doesnt look "pretty balanced" to me....where start the imbalance??

43% OF TOP 100 AVG DMG are slayers...wtf! this is balanced too?

It's different from day to day and also from day time. I don't have data about LOTD but I think destro won like 90%

43% slayers? Ok, lets say they nerf slayers into the ground? You gonna see huge amounts of the next best class in the TOP100 then. Probably WLs. Nerf them into the ground and you gonna see the next best class again. BWs? WHs? And so on.

But yeah, double slayer, knight, ib, wp, rp or something like that is probably the strongest comp atm. In T4 SC STANDARD mode. However, there are also choppas doing very well.

These groups always gonna pick what gives them the highest chance of winning. What if only one order dps is performing really well? Yes, you gonna see that a lot.

It's not a secret that some classes doing very well in there and others not well at all. How many engis or magus do you see?