Choppa Pull, fix or delete it?

[Everdin]

Of course you can survive getting pulled, you can survive rampage, so no more discussion on these topics?

You will find videos where no choppa is in sight and order die, you will find videos where no slayer is in sight and destro die, you will find videos with a bunch of slayers killing other warbands, you will find videos with gtdc spamming choppas not killing anything, you will find videos where people pulled by gtdc die. You wont find any video that PROVES anything because it all depends on the context and who your enemy is. You wont find a lot of order smallscale video where you see someone die in gtdc, people often not showing bad times in videos. While you bring some unicorn 24vs24 fights as argument, there are often fights where you have to retreat because of 24vs48, and at this point gtdc is the most stupid ez-mode prevention of order pulling out of a fight. The smaller the scale the more this is a factor.

So to sum it up:
- Choppa pull is super op to kill people, but magically there's not really much video evidence even on destro side, also it is usally not op in unicorn 24 vs 24 fights (which balance usually revolves around)
- Choppa pull is super op to catch some more fleeing oponents when the fight is already lost because of enemy number superiority

Just to make this clear: Everdin agrees, that choppa pull is only ever useful in certain situations or when the fight is already lost. He also refuses to provide any form of proof, other than his personal opinion. And this boys is the basis on which we discuss a choppa nerf.

What kind of clown are you?

I never saw any evidence in this thread where you can prove that rampage is what killed destro and not any other factor or the incompetence of the destro.
I never said that a fight is lost as soon as the enemy numbers are higher, if you loose every outnumbered fight...sorry for that

And SUPRISE, gtdc is only usefull in situations where you want to close a gap between you and your enemy. In a situation where order is crushing destros under their feet with big numbers, a choppa pulling a slayer in his own backline is not usefull (for destro).

Every ability is just usefull in certain situations, throwing rampage against an enemy without considerable defense is stupid. Defensive moral is only usefull if damage is overwhelming, aoe moral drop is only usefull if timed with others. Stagger is only usefull if no aoe spraying friends are in range.

[Farrul]

replace it with ID+rampage, sure, y not.
they are not asking to replace it, they asking to DELETE it.

Obviously nobody thinks it should get deleted leaving a blank 13 point empty space.

If you want Order melee stuff you need to first understand the difference of the factions melee situation(judging from your replies you dont ).

Order : never has enough tanks, order has an abundance of ranged dps. '' OP rampage Slayer '' is less popular than WL/WH.

Destro : has a wall of tanks. Always have an abundance of Choppas. What does your logic tell you will happen if a massive blob of choppas on rampage vs fewer Order tanks/melee? (Hint: Every singly Order will roll ranged dps to pew pew from safety and the server is likely not going to last for long)

I am not against giving Choppas the equivalent of rampage but first the overall balance has to be looked at(Order tanks).

GTDC? A bugged/broken mess, hence an abomination that deteriorates the game, only solution is to fix/replace it and that has nothing to do with rampage(if that is bugged, fix it too)

[Everdin]

Spoiler:

Of course you can survive getting pulled, you can survive rampage, so no more discussion on these topics?

You will find videos where no choppa is in sight and order die, you will find videos where no slayer is in sight and destro die, you will find videos with a bunch of slayers killing other warbands, you will find videos with gtdc spamming choppas not killing anything, you will find videos where people pulled by gtdc die. You wont find any video that PROVES anything because it all depends on the context and who your enemy is. You wont find a lot of order smallscale video where you see someone die in gtdc, people often not showing bad times in videos. While you bring some unicorn 24vs24 fights as argument, there are often fights where you have to retreat because of 24vs48, and at this point gtdc is the most stupid ez-mode prevention of order pulling out of a fight. The smaller the scale the more this is a factor.

So to sum it up:
- Choppa pull is super op to kill people, but magically there's not really much video evidence even on destro side, also it is usally not op in unicorn 24 vs 24 fights (which balance usually revolves around)
- Choppa pull is super op to catch some more fleeing oponents when the fight is already lost because of enemy number superiority

Just to make this clear: Everdin agrees, that choppa pull is only ever useful in certain situations or when the fight is already lost. He also refuses to provide any form of proof, other than his personal opinion. And this boys is the basis on which we discuss a choppa nerf.

You are laying words into people's mouths whereas your "arguments" are built in a extremely toxic way. If you don't have anything productive to contribute, please refrain from adding your toxic waste to discussions.

I think this thread has outlived it's purpose, people like that will just jump in and derail any discussion.

The problem in this thread is the comparsion between the uncompareable. "You want to take out gtdc, give us rampage & id" with this mentality, this would go on until we have exact mirrors on every class.
If gtdc is useless and a problem for destro, and an annoyance for order, the discussion should easy move to some constructive ideas, but as soon as some thread comes up there are a certain kind of people crying "This ability is sooooo useless compared to rampage, but DONT TAKE IT FROM ME". (no matter about the ability the thread is about, its always rampage)

[Tyrodan]

You are laying words into people's mouths whereas your "arguments" are built in a extremely toxic way. If you don't have anything productive to contribute, please refrain from adding your toxic waste to discussions.

I think this thread has outlived it's purpose, people like that will just jump in and derail any discussion.

********** ulu. We are in a thread where the advocates of the choppa nerf provide nothing but "Muh I died to choppa pull. Choppa pull op. Choppa pull must go." and you talk about being toxic? The projection is strong in you.

What kind of clown are you?

I never saw any evidence in this thread where you can prove that rampage is what killed destro and not any other factor or the incompetence of the destro.
I never said that a fight is lost as soon as the enemy numbers are higher, if you loose every outnumbered fight...sorry for that

And SUPRISE, gtdc is only usefull in situations where you want to close a gap between you and your enemy. In a situation where order is crushing destros under their feet with big numbers, a choppa pulling a slayer in his own backline is not usefull (for destro).

Every ability is just usefull in certain situations, throwing rampage against an enemy without considerable defense is stupid. Defensive moral is only usefull if damage is overwhelming, aoe moral drop is only usefull if timed with others. Stagger is only usefull if no aoe spraying friends are in range.

Dude... we are in a thread about nerfing a choppa based on pure anecdotal evidence, I was pointing out the double standards, not making a nerf thread for slayers. You see the difference? Besides I just told you, how to convince me and shut me up on the topic.

When the mdpv guy wanted to point out the op-ness of def we he posted some videos to stress his points some weeks ago. I'm asking the same of you. If choppa pull is of any notable relevance in organised or smallscale play, please provide videos of people abusing the **** out of it. There's more than enough video footage of organised destro wb- and smallscale-play. In my own experience, choppa pull was never relevant in any meaningful dimension. You object. Good, proof it then.

[Sofong]

replace it with ID+rampage, sure, y not.
they are not asking to replace it, they asking to DELETE it.

Obviously nobody thinks it should get deleted leaving a blank 13 point empty space.

If you want Order melee stuff you need to first understand the difference of the factions melee situation(judging from your replies you dont ).

Order : never has enough tanks, order has an abundance of ranged dps. '' OP rampage Slayer '' is less popular than WL/WH.

Destro : has a wall of tanks. Always have an abundance of Choppas. What does your logic tell you will happen if a massive blob of choppas on rampage vs fewer Order tanks/melee? (Hint: Every singly Order will roll ranged dps to pew pew from safety and the server is likely not going to last for long)

I am not against giving Choppas the equivalent of rampage but first the overall balance has to be looked at(Order tanks).

GTDC? A bugged/broken mess, hence an abomination that deteriorates the game, only solution is to fix/replace it and that has nothing to do with rampage(if that is bugged, fix it too)

1st of all an ability that annoys ppl doesnt necessarily means that it needs to be removed or nerfed.
2nd since when balance is around ramdom zerggers? abundance of this or that doesnt change da fact that slayer is best dps in game, order relies heavily on slayers not the abundance of this and that dpsam or sw. base on simple observation 90% order premade contain at least 1 slayer.
3rd with or without GTDC, choppa never at da same lvl of slayer, yet ppl straight out asking to nerf/delete a 13 point ability here, ideas of rebalancing choppa and slayer(which should be done yrs ago), should also be taken into the equation.

[Everdin]

What do you want me to prove? That Choppa pull pulls people? It's not like you pick a video "Hey look, there he hits the button aaaaand there all order die".

At this point we can declare this game as perfectly balanced, because you can't prove anything else. Maybe you watched to much Ally McBeal, but we are not in a courtroom where everything you can't prove did not happen, and if so, you can take these anecodtes as testimony from witnesses.

You can watch whatever chopper video an see gtdc pulls people that die afterwards, did gtdc kill them? Maybe, maybe not, maybe it was the 20 choppa behind the first one....

Pulling 3 people out of a group/warband whithout the chances to prevent this, while messing up defense and positioning them at a random ankle into your own group/warband make it not possible to escape, while speeding into them with decent damage?
These are facts, no anecdots. And, like mentioned before i agree that this does play a minor role if two fronts clashing into another. But you negate every attempt to escape from the choppa and it's blobb.

And again, on top of this, destro doesn't get tired to mention how bad this ability is for destro itself, but starts crying as soon as someone wants it to be changed.

[Farrul]

1st of all an ability that annoys ppl doesnt necessarily means that it needs to be removed or nerfed.
2nd since when balance is around ramdom zerggers? abundance of this or that doesnt change da fact that slayer is best dps in game, order relies heavily on slayers not the abundance of this and that dpsam or sw. base on simple observation 90% order premade contain at least 1 slayer.
3rd with or without GTDC, choppa never at da same lvl of slayer, yet ppl straight out asking to nerf/delete a 13 point ability here, ideas of rebalancing choppa and slayer(which should be done yrs ago), should also be taken into the equation.

That depends on the cause of the annoyance, if something is unbalanced (point 2) then maybe. If something is bugged/broken then definitely (point 1 and 3) it should be looked at.

The fact is that the heart of the game is orvr and that implies zerging, hence why it such an issue when the bugged/ broken ability is spammed by one of the most played classes of the faction.

It's suggesting a fix/ correction of an ability that cheats the rules of the game, to call it a nerf is only in that context, or are you ok with a cheating class?

The only balance nerf is in point (2) which indeed is broken, pulls are already annoying do deal with but at least other pulls give you a chance to respond(mara/wl) as they position the target in front of them, not right at their feets(choppa)which is imbalanced because of body collision(getting stuck).

As for a direct balance comparison Choppa vs Slayer balance it's a different topic and feel free to create one, however let's say GTDC is fixed(''nerfed'') and this balance comparison is looked at, choppas could recieve a tool which better fits them thematically than some silly aoe bugged pull that really too often kills the fun for Order players(because who wants to be pulled through a floor or getting stuck in solid objects potentially ruining the experience of that player). Maybe it could be satisfying for both factions.

********** ulu. We are in a thread where the advocates of the choppa nerf provide nothing but "Muh I died to choppa pull. Choppa pull op. Choppa pull must go." and you talk about being toxic? The projection is strong in you.

Nice trolling. 3 solid points were made and each one of them facts that can easily be verified if anyone has doubts by just logging an Order toon and playing the actual game. As for the ''funny note'' (1) i do no care if you believe it or not as it is not central to the topic anyways, that you exclusively focus on it reveals your true agenda here(derailing ).

[Detangler]

I mained a SM a while back. GtdC was never an issue. I did plenty of funnels on the front line - never got pulled thru walls and stuck somewhere once. GtdC gave me plenty of free punt immunities, though. Nothing like getting pulled 5 feet or getting pulled closer to my DPS that charge outran me to put a smile on my face. If a squishy on my team got yoinked, i guard swapped and kept them alive. Having a fraction of a second flight time from a pull that may or may not stop all block/parry/dodge/disrupt is not a huge deal, either. Imagine having 20 seconds of a class bypassing all your defenses. Turns out they can put out a lot of pressure, even on tanks.

I've sure had plenty of odd pulls from WL pets, though. Pets that run faster than mount speed to pull me back, pets that pulled me thru a wall with absolutely no chance of LoS (yes, they had to have LoS to send pet, but i was back hugging the wall before the pull).

Pulls can be buggy in this game - always have been. The sky is not falling. Slayers are still better in a straight up fight.

[Everdin]

I mained a SM a while back. GtdC was never an issue. I did plenty of funnels on the front line - never got pulled thru walls and stuck somewhere once. GtdC gave me plenty of free punt immunities, though. Nothing like getting pulled 5 feet or getting pulled closer to my DPS that charge outran me to put a smile on my face. If a squishy on my team got yoinked, i guard swapped and kept them alive. Having a fraction of a second flight time from a pull that may or may not stop all block/parry/dodge/disrupt is not a huge deal, either. Imagine having 20 seconds of a class bypassing all your defenses. Turns out they can put out a lot of pressure, even on tanks.

I've sure had plenty of odd pulls from WL pets, though. Pets that run faster than mount speed to pull me back, pets that pulled me thru a wall with absolutely no chance of LoS (yes, they had to have LoS to send pet, but i was back hugging the wall before the pull).

Pulls can be buggy in this game - always have been. The sky is not falling. Slayers are still better in a straight up fight.

Pet with tactic at 50% speed bonus vs 60% on a mount, not to consider awful pet pathing I doubt that a pet get you straight running behind you, a pet can get you while on you are on your feet, but the pull hardly works on a moving target most of the time it fails (not defendet, just a simple "nope" from the server)

[Earthcake]

I can help with the destro tanks > order tanks

On my chosen i got 50% parry without any renown nor parry gear. It's just there, for free, cause i look good.
On my BO, I press a button and get 50% block, again just cause i look strong.
Destro tanks got better defenses, better morale gen, better CC.

I got a 1.6 KDA on my chosen playing snb almost all the time. The day they remove rampage i go 75% parry and never die again ,ever. And it's the same for other destro tanks. WHILE having better CC and faster morale.

tldr : except CD reduction, destro tanks do everything better.