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DPS vs Shield DOK...DW In a Sad State.

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MedV
Posts: 243

DPS vs Shield DOK...DW In a Sad State.

Post#1 » Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:27 am

I would like to discuss the differences in strength between DPS vs Shield DOK which applies to WP as well and maybe come up with some reasonable suggestions to buff DPS and tone down Shield. With the new interest in ranked as of late we have seen the rise in power of Shield spec. I often wonder why DW DOK was nerfed when it was never over performing as shield spec is right now. It is a sad time to see so little DW DOKs playing anymore.

Ranked matches consistently show shield doks topping dmg and healing during matched. It makes me wonder why anyone would even consider going DPS Spec as you are less tanky, take the spot away from a different dps and honestly probably do the same damage if not very close.

My suggestion would be to both decrease dmg output of shield spec by lowering dmg done but increasing ratio of lifetaps (which would keep healing numbers the same but lower dps output). Then increase base dps of DW DOK.

Maybe DW could get a new ability/tactic to make it more viable to play in rvr/scs.

These changes would basically have no impact on large WB play (as neither are viable for WB) including forts, cities, rvr etc, and allow ranked to now have both DW and Shield spec DOKs/WPs play again.

If any BIS Shield and BIS DPS DOK can show timestamps on target dummy it would be much appreciated to see difference in % Dmg output.

TLDR: Shield Spec has too similar dps output as DW DOK while increased tankiness and not taking 2nd dps spot from your team in ranked.

OH and Chalice DOK is now the worst healer in the game. - So nerf shield and buff dps and chalice.
Last edited by MedV on Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Rydiak
Posts: 682

Re: DPS vs Shield DOK...DW In a Sad State.

Post#2 » Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:27 am

DPS DoK has been repeatedly buffed, with only the melee healer spec nerfed in recent history. Our last balance pass on DPS DoK even increased the DPS of Fell Sacrifice and gave Cleave Soul an armor ignore. DPS DoK can be very competitive in ranked too. Nerfing a healer to buff a DPS, which each take separate queue slots, doesn't make much sense to me either.

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MedV
Posts: 243

Re: DPS vs Shield DOK...DW In a Sad State.

Post#3 » Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:07 am

Recent buffs/nerfs only matter if they have fixed the problem. We still see Shield DOKs out dpsing the dps and tanks. They are overperforming. DPS DOKs are underperforming. And changing the classes even though they take different spots matter when its the same class.
The King.

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Sinisterror
Posts: 491

Re: DPS vs Shield DOK...DW In a Sad State.

Post#4 » Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:08 am

MedV wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:07 am
Recent buffs/nerfs only matter if they have fixed the problem. We still see Shield DOKs out dpsing the dps and tanks. They are overperforming. DPS DOKs are underperforming. And changing the classes even though they take different spots matter when its the same class.
Agreed 100%. All this is same for WP as well, WP is better shield spec a bit because Sigmar Shield, HD and Leading the Prayer. FoK/Judgement should be AP based and gain 15 RF/Essence with DW/2h. Both DPS dok/wp should get AP based melee heal as well. It is insane how OP it is with shield to do TE/SR to gain RF and heal whole party and then CE/DS to use mechanic and gain AP back along healing over 2k aoe on targets. DPS Dok/WP neither was this powerful ever in this game. Shield is too good.

Bludgeon/Cleave soul ignoring 600 armour when behind target is useless. Fell of sacrifice buff was nice but not really what the class needs (both DDdok/WP)
"To clarify, me asking to developers to go test their own changes is not sign of toxicity or anger, but a sign of hope that the people punching in the numbers remain aware of potential consequences and test their own changes"-Teefz

Sulorie
Posts: 6279

Re: DPS vs Shield DOK...DW In a Sad State.

Post#5 » Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:23 am

MedV wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:07 am
We still see Shield DOKs out dpsing the dps and tanks.
The sc scoreboard doesn't show dps, you know? Those damage and heal numbers are mostly aoe hits and heals. Dw dok has way more single target damage.
Dying is no option.

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MedV
Posts: 243

Re: DPS vs Shield DOK...DW In a Sad State.

Post#6 » Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:42 am

Sulorie wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:23 am
MedV wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:07 am
We still see Shield DOKs out dpsing the dps and tanks.
The sc scoreboard doesn't show dps, you know? Those damage and heal numbers are mostly aoe hits and heals. Dw dok has way more single target damage.
I think everyone knows what someone means when they say "DPS" - You really think I am saying "We still see shield DOKs out damage per seconding the damage per seconders and tanks" Stop being pedantic. Still, 200-300k aoe dmg is still putting alot of pressure on the opponents healers when its additive to the other players vs the zealot who has 2k dmg.

If you read original post I ask for someone to show the damage on a test dummy to see this exact numbers. It would be interesting to see the difference in actual DPS for single target.

Also Shield DOK shouldnt be a better healer than Chalice DOK.

Chalice DOK is now the worst healer in the game.
The King.

pvprangergod
Suspended
Posts: 171

Re: DPS vs Shield DOK...DW In a Sad State.

Post#7 » Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:35 am

shield has already been nerfed to the point its a totally useless spec just like "dps" spec

pvprangergod
Suspended
Posts: 171

Re: DPS vs Shield DOK...DW In a Sad State.

Post#8 » Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:36 am

Rydiak wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:27 am
DPS DoK has been repeatedly buffed, with only the melee healer spec nerfed in recent history. Our last balance pass on DPS DoK even increased the DPS of Fell Sacrifice and gave Cleave Soul an armor ignore. DPS DoK can be very competitive in ranked too. Nerfing a healer to buff a DPS, which each take separate queue slots, doesn't make much sense to me either.
dps dok is totally useless unless you are talking about solo "ranked" and 0 mmr matches with zero communicating and no assisting

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MedV
Posts: 243

Re: DPS vs Shield DOK...DW In a Sad State.

Post#9 » Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:49 am

DOK has been slowly made a 2nd class toon. Whether through nerfs or other class buffs. 99% of the time the best comp does not have a dok in it anymore. You can make the argument that you would want some Chalice DOKs in WB play but Shammy and Zealot are still better choices. Ranked only shield DOK is viable. No other situations would you really prefer a DOK over a different class.

WB Play -
-- Heals Zealot > Shammy > Chalice DOK > Shield DOK
-- DPS - DOK doesnt even make the cut

Roaming 6man
--Heals Shammy > Zealot > Chalice DOK > Shield DOK
--DPS - DOK doesnt even make the cut

Ranked 6 man
--- Heals Shield DOK > Zealot > Shammy > Chalice DOK
--- DPS WE > Mara > SH > Choppa >DPS Shammy > Magus > DPS DOK > Sorc

This is how I personally thing DOK stacks against the other classes. Would like some honest discussion, maybe im wrong.
The King.

pvprangergod
Suspended
Posts: 171

Re: DPS vs Shield DOK...DW In a Sad State.

Post#10 » Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:54 am

MedV wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:49 am
DOK has been slowly made a 2nd class toon. Whether through nerfs or other class buffs. 99% of the time the best comp does not have a dok in it anymore. You can make the argument that you would want some Chalice DOKs in WB play but Shammy and Zealot are still better choices. Ranked only shield DOK is viable. No other situations would you really prefer a DOK over a different class.

WB Play -
-- Heals Zealot > Shammy > Chalice DOK > Shield DOK
-- DPS - DOK doesnt even make the cut

Roaming 6man
--Heals Shammy > Zealot > Chalice DOK > Shield DOK
--DPS - DOK doesnt even make the cut

Ranked 6 man
--- Heals Shield DOK > Zealot > Shammy > Chalice DOK
--- DPS WE > Mara > SH > Choppa >DPS Shammy > Magus > DPS DOK > Sorc

This is how I personally thing DOK stacks against the other classes. Would like some honest discussion, maybe im wrong.
dps dok doesnt have any damage to be useful in ranked

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