Shamans.

[Husti]

If anything shaman needs a buff according to this screenshot. lvl 39 getting outhealed 2x by lvl 18 zealot. Nerf zealot. Thank.

https://imgur.com/a/w9ELm7x

Zealot needs a nerf aswell, basically all destro healers

If you nerf Zealot, are you going to nerf RP too since they are basically an exact mirror but with access to more armor? You guys are funny.

What do you do when you have no arguments? You either post stuff like "I like turtles" or "foot of gork" to turn it into ridicule or you start discussing other things that are not the topic of this thread. Both things usually lead to a lock or deletion of the thread. That's usually their goal when doing this.

Nobody actually discussing differences between AM and Shaman and what could be the reason for the higher healing output of the Shamans. Why? They don't want to get their toon nerfed or the other side buffed. It's that simple.

WPs/Doks and RP/Zealots are very close mirrors. Both can basically do the same. For heal AM vs heal Shaman it is not the same. They have different tactics and a different 14 point spec heal. One is a second spec hot with buildin toughness buff that can be used on the run, cannot be interrupted and has no cooldown. The other is a channeled heal with a cooldown, where you have to stand still, that does not have a build in tough buff, that can be interrupted and that locks the caster down for 3s.

Both classes are having the same base hot, absorb, castest single target and group heals but what the AM is missing is the "pro-active-pre-hotting" ability. In the usual scenario or city you are having tanks and mdps in the front and the healers and ranged dps in the back. Now if you start the fight with dual hotting mdps before they even take damage, you already have made them tougher and harder to kill because the hots are ticking and you have time to focus on other stuff. The AM on the other hand can only spread his base hot, no toughness and no second hot before the fight starts. You have to wait till someone takes damage and use the channeled heal with care because when you waste it you gonna have to wait some time for the next use. It's also rather weak for the cooldown it has. The AM is also worse to keep on healing while on the move. Do somefin useful can be used on the run, even when the run tactic fires. It is superior for kiting groups where you are on the move.

For me, playing both classes, the spec hot is a lot better suited for most situations and it makes allies tougher and has a overall a higher heal output when you can keep spreading it over the group. It is a lot easier to keep people alive with that double hotting. With crit gear it does insane amouts of healing. The channeled heal is more of an emergency ability but you don't really need it because you have WPs, RPs, potions and morals for that.

You also have to look at the synergies. Maras for example have a self hot and absorb, WLs don't. Choppas have wounds tactic and M1 absorb, Slayers don't. And so forth. It works very well with the shaman double hotting.

If you ask me what would be fair: 5s cooldown on shaman spec hot, toughness buff cut in half (no other buff is that strong), toughness buff given to order side, run away speed buff added to run between worlds.

[wachlarz]

Zealot needs a nerf aswell, basically all destro healers

If you nerf Zealot, are you going to nerf RP too since they are basically an exact mirror but with access to more armor? You guys are funny.

What do you do when you have no arguments? You either post stuff like "I like turtles" or "foot of gork" to turn it into ridicule or you start discussing other things that are not the topic of this thread. Both things usually lead to a lock or deletion of the thread. That's usually their goal when doing this.

Nobody actually discussing differences between AM and Shaman and what could be the reason for the higher healing output of the Shamans. Why? They don't want to get their toon nerfed or the other side buffed. It's that simple.

WPs/Doks and RP/Zealots are very close mirrors. Both can basically do the same. For heal AM vs heal Shaman it is not the same. They have different tactics and a different 14 point spec heal. One is a second spec hot with buildin toughness buff that can be used on the run, cannot be interrupted and has no cooldown. The other is a channeled heal with a cooldown, where you have to stand still, that does not have a build in tough buff, that can be interrupted and that locks the caster down for 3s.

Both classes are having the same base hot, absorb, castest single target and group heals but what the AM is missing is the "pro-active-pre-hotting" ability. In the usual scenario or city you are having tanks and mdps in the front and the healers and ranged dps in the back. Now if you start the fight with dual hotting mdps before they even take damage, you already have made them tougher and harder to kill because the hots are ticking and you have time to focus on other stuff. The AM on the other hand can only spread his base hot, no toughness and no second hot before the fight starts. You have to wait till someone takes damage and use the channeled heal with care because when you waste it you gonna have to wait some time for the next use. It's also rather weak for the cooldown it has. The AM is also worse to keep on healing while on the move. Do somefin useful can be used on the run, even when the run tactic fires. It is superior for kiting groups where you are on the move.

For me, playing both classes, the spec hot is a lot better suited for most situations and it makes allies tougher and has a overall a higher heal output when you can keep spreading it over the group. It is a lot easier to keep people alive with that double hotting. With crit gear it does insane amouts of healing. The channeled heal is more of an emergency ability but you don't really need it because you have WPs, RPs, potions and morals for that.

You also have to look at the synergies. Maras for example have a self hot and absorb, WLs don't. Choppas have wounds tactic and M1 absorb, Slayers don't. And so forth. It works very well with the shaman double hotting.

If you ask me what would be fair: 5s cooldown on shaman spec hot, toughness buff cut in half (no other buff is that strong), toughness buff given to order side, run away speed buff added to run between worlds.

How many order have rdps and how many have destro rdps ? How many order rdps have stun/knockback and destro ? Its bit harder to avoid range dps then a 20 melle blobed stacked dps dont U think ?

[Toggle]

Zealot needs a nerf aswell, basically all destro healers

If you nerf Zealot, are you going to nerf RP too since they are basically an exact mirror but with access to more armor? You guys are funny.

What do you do when you have no arguments? You either post stuff like "I like turtles" or "foot of gork" to turn it into ridicule or you start discussing other things that are not the topic of this thread. Both things usually lead to a lock or deletion of the thread. That's usually their goal when doing this.

Nobody actually discussing differences between AM and Shaman and what could be the reason for the higher healing output of the Shamans. Why? They don't want to get their toon nerfed or the other side buffed. It's that simple.

WPs/Doks and RP/Zealots are very close mirrors. Both can basically do the same. For heal AM vs heal Shaman it is not the same. They have different tactics and a different 14 point spec heal. One is a second spec hot with buildin toughness buff that can be used on the run, cannot be interrupted and has no cooldown. The other is a channeled heal with a cooldown, where you have to stand still, that does not have a build in tough buff, that can be interrupted and that locks the caster down for 3s.

Both classes are having the same base hot, absorb, castest single target and group heals but what the AM is missing is the "pro-active-pre-hotting" ability. In the usual scenario or city you are having tanks and mdps in the front and the healers and ranged dps in the back. Now if you start the fight with dual hotting mdps before they even take damage, you already have made them tougher and harder to kill because the hots are ticking and you have time to focus on other stuff. The AM on the other hand can only spread his base hot, no toughness and no second hot before the fight starts. You have to wait till someone takes damage and use the channeled heal with care because when you waste it you gonna have to wait some time for the next use. It's also rather weak for the cooldown it has. The AM is also worse to keep on healing while on the move. Do somefin useful can be used on the run, even when the run tactic fires. It is superior for kiting groups where you are on the move.

For me, playing both classes, the spec hot is a lot better suited for most situations and it makes allies tougher and has a overall a higher heal output when you can keep spreading it over the group. It is a lot easier to keep people alive with that double hotting. With crit gear it does insane amouts of healing. The channeled heal is more of an emergency ability but you don't really need it because you have WPs, RPs, potions and morals for that.

You also have to look at the synergies. Maras for example have a self hot and absorb, WLs don't. Choppas have wounds tactic and M1 absorb, Slayers don't. And so forth. It works very well with the shaman double hotting.

If you ask me what would be fair: 5s cooldown on shaman spec hot, toughness buff cut in half (no other buff is that strong), toughness buff given to order side, run away speed buff added to run between worlds.

Personally, I prefer that each class has their own unique “flavor”, even when you’re taking about mirrors. RP has the armor buff, so they get to be more tanky. Zealot gets Windblock, so they get to assist the melee train. Shammy may be a slightly better healer (and having played both quite a bit, the difference is almost so small it’s barely noticeable) and be more survivable. But AM does better dmg in DPS spec (which I happen to like), and is a better roaming healer than shammy (in my opinion) because of that ST channel they get as opposed to the extra HoT, which they can run in addition to the HD, if they spec for it. They also can spec to avoid getting KDed, which I’m willing to bet very, very few do…which might explain why some people have so much difficulty surviving on them.

In my experience, having played both to 70+, they are close enough to one another that there isn’t a glaringly obvious “winner” in the healing department. They both heal really, really well given the right conditions.

However, I’m not naive enough to believe that anything I say here really matters. People who say shammy is OP, even if they have never played one, or even worse don’t play Destro at all, aren’t going to be swayed by any discussion on a forum. Those of us that not only play both sides but also the specific classes being discussed are going to be dismissed as “Destro mains” or be called “biased” regardless of what the actual truth of the matter is.

TLDR - As someone who plays both sides, and has played both AM/shammy extensively, they’re fine.

Is there where people normally say git gud?

[Husti]

Personally, I prefer that each class has their own unique “flavor”, even when you’re taking about mirrors. RP has the armor buff, so they get to be more tanky. Zealot gets Windblock, so they get to assist the melee train. Shammy may be a slightly better healer (and having played both quite a bit, the difference is almost so small it’s barely noticeable) and be more survivable. But AM does better dmg in DPS spec (which I happen to like), and is a better roaming healer than shammy (in my opinion) because of that ST channel they get as opposed to the extra HoT, which they can run in addition to the HD, if they spec for it. They also can spec to avoid getting KDed, which I’m willing to bet very, very few do…which might explain why some people have so much difficulty surviving on them.

In my experience, having played both to 70+, they are close enough to one another that there isn’t a glaringly obvious “winner” in the healing department. They both heal really, really well given the right conditions.

However, I’m not naive enough to believe that anything I say here really matters. People who say shammy is OP, even if they have never played one, or even worse don’t play Destro at all, aren’t going to be swayed by any discussion on a forum. Those of us that not only play both sides but also the specific classes being discussed are going to be dismissed as “Destro mains” or be called “biased” regardless of what the actual truth of the matter is.

TLDR - As someone who plays both sides, and has played both AM/shammy extensively, they’re fine.

Is there where people normally say git gud?

Actually Shaman is the better healer, the better dps, has more survivability the better group utility and is better at roaming.

AM doing more damage is a wifes tale man. They keep telling this myth. It might have been true in early live but today in RoR the dps Shaman does more damage than the AM, due to the build in toughness debuff in the damage tactic, the int steal and Ere we go. The damage values for the other spells are the same.

How can you even ignore that 250 tough buff in the healer spec or 250 tough debuff in the dps spec? It's huge and helps vs any type of damage. No other buff or debuff on any class has that stat increase/decrease.

[ExcretusMaximus]

Actually Shaman is the ... better dps

Want to know how I know you have no idea what you're talking about?

You actually said Shaman has better DPS than anything, let alone an AM.

[Husti]

Actually Shaman is the ... better dps

Want to know how I know you have no idea what you're talking about?

You actually said Shaman has better DPS than anything, let alone an AM.

Want to know how I know that you have no clue? You doubt it.

What I said was in the Shaman vs AM context of course. Only scenario where AM does more is when he slots aoe tactic for lance. But single target Shaman is ahead.

[Toggle]

Personally, I prefer that each class has their own unique “flavor”, even when you’re taking about mirrors. RP has the armor buff, so they get to be more tanky. Zealot gets Windblock, so they get to assist the melee train. Shammy may be a slightly better healer (and having played both quite a bit, the difference is almost so small it’s barely noticeable) and be more survivable. But AM does better dmg in DPS spec (which I happen to like), and is a better roaming healer than shammy (in my opinion) because of that ST channel they get as opposed to the extra HoT, which they can run in addition to the HD, if they spec for it. They also can spec to avoid getting KDed, which I’m willing to bet very, very few do…which might explain why some people have so much difficulty surviving on them.

In my experience, having played both to 70+, they are close enough to one another that there isn’t a glaringly obvious “winner” in the healing department. They both heal really, really well given the right conditions.

However, I’m not naive enough to believe that anything I say here really matters. People who say shammy is OP, even if they have never played one, or even worse don’t play Destro at all, aren’t going to be swayed by any discussion on a forum. Those of us that not only play both sides but also the specific classes being discussed are going to be dismissed as “Destro mains” or be called “biased” regardless of what the actual truth of the matter is.

TLDR - As someone who plays both sides, and has played both AM/shammy extensively, they’re fine.

Is there where people normally say git gud?

Actually Shaman is the better healer, the better dps, has more survivability the better group utility and is better at roaming.

AM doing more damage is a wifes tale man. They keep telling this myth. It might have been true in early live but today in RoR the dps Shaman does more damage than the AM, due to the build in toughness debuff in the damage tactic, the int steal and Ere we go. The damage values for the other spells are the same.

How can you even ignore that 250 tough buff in the healer spec or 250 tough debuff in the dps spec? It's huge. You need more than 10 purple lvl 40 talis or around 100 renown points to get that amount of tough. And it can be applied on every ally and kept up on multiple targets. And it's not even a separate cast, the buff/debuff just comes for free with their normal abilities. Why? No other buff or debuff on any class has that stat increase/decrease. Beside that the goblin tactics are still superior to any other racial tactic.

Just to play this game, because I'm bored, to get everything you're listing for shammy - that's 3 globals for the DoTs, 1 global for the debuff, 1 global for the 'ere we g go, and then you get to channel. So, 5 total for your rotation. That also doesn't count the HD (another global) if you want to be able to kill someone with even a couple of HoTs on them. We'll call that 6 globals then.

For the AM, you have 4 globals for the dots (which includes your HD), 1 global for the spirit debuff (if you're close enough), and then you channel. So, you're at 5 globals here.

DPS is damage per second. The AM's rotation is shorter and therefor it does more damage per second if you count total time casting to damage applied. Maybe in a perfect world where you have all day to cast at a stationary target, the shammy is better. I don't have the same gear on both my AM and shammy, so I'm not able to test that.

Both AM and shammy can easily soft cap int, with or without the int stealing, so it's a non issue.

250 toughness buff is great, if you build specifically for it - meaning you run invaders with full toughness tallys as a shaman. Otherwise, wounds is the better eHP choice because you can't stack enough toughness for it to be game changing. I've run armor on my shammy, wounds on my shammy, and toughness on my shammy. Wounds worked the best for keeping me alive.

Not even going to address the "goblin tactics are still superior to any other racial tactic" because it's an opinion. It may be yours, but I don't happen to agree with it. I would kill for my Zealot to have the RP armor tactic (or even my AM for that matter). I could take or leave run away and the autodetaunt, especially since run away got nerfed. People tend to highlight them without thinking about what a shammy gives up if they run both of them at the same time. Spoiler alert - no good heal shammy does. It's a waste of slots. Sure, they work great in niche solo roam hybrid builds, but there are way better things to slot if you're going to heal well.

But, like I already said, I'm not going to convince you to change your mind. All I can say is what I've already said - played both a bunch. They're fine.

[Husti]

Just to play this game, because I'm bored, to get everything you're listing for shammy - that's 3 globals for the DoTs, 1 global for the debuff, 1 global for the 'ere we g go, and then you get to channel. So, 5 total for your rotation. That also doesn't count the HD (another global) if you want to be able to kill someone with even a couple of HoTs on them. We'll call that 6 globals then.

For the AM, you have 4 globals for the dots (which includes your HD), 1 global for the spirit debuff (if you're close enough), and then you channel. So, you're at 5 globals here.

DPS is damage per second. The AM's rotation is shorter and therefor it does more damage per second if you count total time casting to damage applied. Maybe in a perfect world where you have all day to cast at a stationary target, the shammy is better. I don't have the same gear on both my AM and shammy, so I'm not able to test that.

Both AM and shammy can easily soft cap int, with or without the int stealing, so it's a non issue.

You are wrong. The tough debuff is build into Bunch o Waaagh from Touch of Gork. AMs get the same tactic just without the tough debuff. The dots and cooldowns are the same. If you want to add Ere we go for a little more burst then it is your choice. AMs dont have that option.

With int steal you can keep the stat lower and take wounds or tough instead. You also get less disrupts with more int. It's only a small factor but it is nice anyway.

Btw: Shamans also have a damage debuff on their puddle. AMs get get a lousy ini reduction instead. There is also no Gork sez Stop for AMs which is kinda nice for solo roaming.

250 toughness buff is great, if you build specifically for it - meaning you run invaders with full toughness tallys as a shaman. Otherwise, wounds is the better eHP choice because you can't stack enough toughness for it to be game changing. I've run armor on my shammy, wounds on my shammy, and toughness on my shammy. Wounds worked the best for keeping me alive.

Not even going to address the "goblin tactics are still superior to any other racial tactic" because it's an opinion. It may be yours, but I don't happen to agree with it. I would kill for my Zealot to have the RP armor tactic (or even my AM for that matter). I could take or leave run away and the autodetaunt, especially since run away got nerfed. People tend to highlight them without thinking about what a shammy gives up if they run both of them at the same time. Spoiler alert - no good heal shammy does. It's a waste of slots. Sure, they work great in niche solo roam hybrid builds, but there are way better things to slot if you're going to heal well.

But, like I already said, I'm not going to convince you to change your mind. All I can say is what I've already said - played both a bunch. They're fine.

You don't have to build for toughness. 250 toughness are 250 toughness... equal to 10 purple lvl 40 talis or around 100 renown points.

The RP armor tactic is nice but it does nothing vs magical damage, nothing vs armor ignoring abilities. Zealots get the absorb and wind instead. Seems balanced to me.

Run away is a situational tactic. They have the option to slot it for kite groups or solo roaming. AMs don't have that option.

The auto detaunt is also situational. When you want to go as tanky as possible because you are getting focused then it is a nice option. AMs don't have that option.

[Toggle]

Just to play this game, because I'm bored, to get everything you're listing for shammy - that's 3 globals for the DoTs, 1 global for the debuff, 1 global for the 'ere we g go, and then you get to channel. So, 5 total for your rotation. That also doesn't count the HD (another global) if you want to be able to kill someone with even a couple of HoTs on them. We'll call that 6 globals then.

For the AM, you have 4 globals for the dots (which includes your HD), 1 global for the spirit debuff (if you're close enough), and then you channel. So, you're at 5 globals here.

DPS is damage per second. The AM's rotation is shorter and therefor it does more damage per second if you count total time casting to damage applied. Maybe in a perfect world where you have all day to cast at a stationary target, the shammy is better. I don't have the same gear on both my AM and shammy, so I'm not able to test that.

Both AM and shammy can easily soft cap int, with or without the int stealing, so it's a non issue.

You are wrong. The tough debuff is build into Bunch o Waaagh from Touch of Gork. AMs get the same tactic just without the tough debuff. The dots and cooldowns are the same. If you want to add Ere we go for a little more burst then it is your choice. AMs dont have that option.

With int steal you can keep the stat lower and take wounds or tough instead. You also get less disrupts with more int. It's only a small factor but it is nice anyway.

Btw: Shamans also have a damage debuff on their puddle. AMs get get a lousy ini reduction instead. There is also no Gork sez Stop for AMs which is kinda nice for solo roaming.

250 toughness buff is great, if you build specifically for it - meaning you run invaders with full toughness tallys as a shaman. Otherwise, wounds is the better eHP choice because you can't stack enough toughness for it to be game changing. I've run armor on my shammy, wounds on my shammy, and toughness on my shammy. Wounds worked the best for keeping me alive.

Not even going to address the "goblin tactics are still superior to any other racial tactic" because it's an opinion. It may be yours, but I don't happen to agree with it. I would kill for my Zealot to have the RP armor tactic (or even my AM for that matter). I could take or leave run away and the autodetaunt, especially since run away got nerfed. People tend to highlight them without thinking about what a shammy gives up if they run both of them at the same time. Spoiler alert - no good heal shammy does. It's a waste of slots. Sure, they work great in niche solo roam hybrid builds, but there are way better things to slot if you're going to heal well.

But, like I already said, I'm not going to convince you to change your mind. All I can say is what I've already said - played both a bunch. They're fine.

You don't have to build for toughness. 250 toughness are 250 toughness... equal to 10 purple lvl 40 talis or around 100 renown points.

The RP armor tactic is nice but it does nothing vs magical damage, nothing vs armor ignoring abilities. Zealots get the absorb and wind instead. Seems balanced to me.

Run away is a situational tactic. They have the option to slot it for kite groups or solo roaming. AMs don't have that option.

The auto detaunt is also situational. When you want to go as tanky as possible because you are getting focused then it is a nice option. AMs don't have that option.

Like I said, not going to convince you otherwise. So, I'll leave you with this - you might be right.

[Secrets]

yea no, sorry, class is fine