Anatomy of a Failed Patch

[Orontes]

It seems like the supports of this patch can't decide whether the nerf was very much justified and long overdue or that the classes barely changed at all in terms of its power and you should not really complain about the nerf.

Probably down to perspective.
City/WB maguses don't particularly care, because they are used to playing at limitted stacks, while the BTT style of squat around waiting for some unfortunate individual to pass by gets hit pretty hard, at an individual level.

TB is kind of split based on how people's favored class is reliant on Critical damage to do anything. Prime examples being Sorcs and BWs, who hang around 172% which gets nuked a 68,8% off it. (Just to show how much that is that's Sov 4p, Onslaught proc and nearly half(41,8) of their class mechanic, which forces them to take damage from their own spells). The most common argument, in it's favor so far is: "People aren't going to use it", but if that is the case then why add it?

I think both your and nonfactor's post above are salient points, demonstrating the Patch support is basically incoherent. The Devs have gone silent because there is no real defense, given they couched the whole things as a bug fix that's been proven false.

It should also be recalled, the entire impetus for this patch absurdity was two abilities: Napalm and Mist. Even if one agreed with the initial analysis on the two abilities, it doesn't follow all damage should be cut in half.

[Stophy22]

unpopular opinion: Stop using the forums as a place to complain or be dramatic about changes in the game, maybe in time it will spark a healthier more reputable relationship w/ the devs and owners of the server.

[Sulorie]

...it doesn't follow all damage should be cut in half.

Be more precise.

[AtlasShoved]

 Again, according to Cqenqi, the core matrix the Powers are using to evaluate class standing is the damage done during City actions.  If this is correct, it is stunningly ignorant.  Engi/Magi AOE is fluff damage. It doesn't have any burst components.  Further, to base any evaluation of class performance off of numbers alone confuses a calculation as a justification: class X has sum Y as its damage therefore, imbalance?  Such analysis ignores the player experience.   How many City action grps are begging for engi or magi? How many are running in fear during City actions because engi/magi are on the opposing side?  Where are the hordes of threads complaining about engi/magi OP-ness in Cities?  This patch is a direct attack on two classes that were not considered over performing in Cities by the larger player base.  It is clear the Powers that undertook this action do not play these classes in any meaningful way, or have knowledge of the classes played experience.  These patch actions were done in ignorance of the classes affected. 

I suspected this was happening, and I fully agree that damage numbers alone cannot lead to good balancing decisions.

Numbers on a board, whether they be Damage Done, Deathblows or 3 second bursts on a target dummy, they are meaningless without context.

What they are, are blank sheets of paper that one can project their personal biases onto.

I thought the introduction of class advisors was supposed to make an end to the developers having to rely on these senseless tools.

There's a bit of a fundamental question about AoE vs ST damage underpinning this as well. AoE in sc's might very well be "just fluff" But it still forces gameplay action from the enemy team in a coordinated city environment. If the AoE damage output really was worthless, why do it at all? At a certian point there is value to this "fluff" damage in the sense that if a certian spec can output to the tune of millions more damage than others can per time, then bringing one forces that much more reaction from an opposing team, and should more than justify slotting in an engi or a magus in city.

Personally I think the rr skill is the bigger offender of the two changes, because practically speaking engi/magi are often sub cap for stacks, and how disproportionately much it punishes crit damage reliant classes. Sorc/BW are probably still decent for bomb spec play but this cripples their ability to spike anyone using it (every healer). The only reason I can see for releasing this would be that they're planning on releasing something that powercreeps us further, (be it the Vale, LoD, or what have you), BUT they have indicated in the past that they don't really want to heighten the power level too much beyond sov, so at this point I'm as confused as the next guy.

[AtlasShoved]

It seems like the supports of this patch can't decide whether the nerf was very much justified and long overdue or that the classes barely changed at all in terms of its power and you should not really complain about the nerf.

Probably down to perspective.
City/WB maguses don't particularly care, because they are used to playing at limitted stacks, while the BTT style of squat around waiting for some unfortunate individual to pass by gets hit pretty hard, at an individual level.

TB is kind of split based on how people's favored class is reliant on Critical damage to do anything. Prime examples being Sorcs and BWs, who hang around 172% which gets nuked a 68,8% off it. (Just to show how much that is that's Sov 4p, Onslaught proc and nearly half(41,8) of their class mechanic, which forces them to take damage from their own spells). The most common argument, in it's favor so far is: "People aren't going to use it", but if that is the case then why add it?

I think both your and nonfactor's post above are salient points, demonstrating the Patch support is basically incoherent. The Devs have gone silent because there is no real defense, given they couched the whole things as a bug fix that's been proven false.

It should also be recalled, the entire impetus for this patch absurdity was two abilities: Napalm and Mist. Even if one agreed with the initial analysis on the two abilities, it doesn't follow all damage should be cut in half.

Am I mistaken in that it's a conditional 20% damage nerf to engi/magi? That's far from half.

[Orontes]

...it doesn't follow all damage should be cut in half.

Be more precise.

Quite right. It doesn't follow all bonus damage should be cut in half

[Orontes]

Probably down to perspective.
City/WB maguses don't particularly care, because they are used to playing at limitted stacks, while the BTT style of squat around waiting for some unfortunate individual to pass by gets hit pretty hard, at an individual level.

TB is kind of split based on how people's favored class is reliant on Critical damage to do anything. Prime examples being Sorcs and BWs, who hang around 172% which gets nuked a 68,8% off it. (Just to show how much that is that's Sov 4p, Onslaught proc and nearly half(41,8) of their class mechanic, which forces them to take damage from their own spells). The most common argument, in it's favor so far is: "People aren't going to use it", but if that is the case then why add it?

I think both your and nonfactor's post above are salient points, demonstrating the Patch support is basically incoherent. The Devs have gone silent because there is no real defense, given they couched the whole things as a bug fix that's been proven false.

It should also be recalled, the entire impetus for this patch absurdity was two abilities: Napalm and Mist. Even if one agreed with the initial analysis on the two abilities, it doesn't follow all damage should be cut in half.

Am I mistaken in that it's a conditional 20% damage nerf to engi/magi? That's far from half.

It's a bonus damage nerf from 40% to 20% tied to the pet. The 40% bonus damage was set in an engi/magus rework in 2016 to fix two classes that were commonly viewed as weak. The new 20% bonus damage is the same as during Live when both classes were considered comic relief.

[AtlasShoved]

Am I mistaken in that it's a conditional 20% damage nerf to engi/magi? That's far from half.

It's a bonus damage nerf from 40% to 20% tied to the pet. The 40% bonus damage was set in an engi/magus rework in 2016 to fix two classes that were commonly viewed as weak. The new 20% bonus damage is the same as during Live when both classes were considered comic relief.

So a 20% nerf at max stacks. Can you explain how that totals up to output/2?

EDIT: I reread your post I see that you meant the bonus was cut by half and not engi/magi's total output, my bad

[Neverever]

It's a bonus damage nerf from 40% to 20% tied to the pet. The 40% bonus damage was set in an engi/magus rework in 2016 to fix two classes that were commonly viewed as weak. The new 20% bonus damage is the same as during Live when both classes were considered comic relief.

Let's not be funny and read the changes Engi has received since then. Time to stop crying seriously. Engi and magus are fine.

Damage bonus change was far from the only thing about these classes that were changed since live. Some generic changes like the DoT refresh mechanic has benefitted Engineer & Magus a lot. But off the top of my head (probably forgotten some) engineer has also had these changes:

- Napalm grenade base damage increased by 50%
- Strafing run is a core skill
- Bandolier tactic replaced with Dazzling Flash (AoE build time increase)
- Phosphorous Shells moved to Grenadier and made into a channeled damage and AoE snare
- Added Armor Piercing Rounds (25% armor penetration) to 13pts Rifleman
- Land mine has less delay before it explodes and staggers for 5s
- Quick reloader tactic changed to reduce cast time of rifleman abilities
- Crack shot cast time reduced from 2s to 1s
- Keg only heals party members
- Shock Grenade is removed and replaced by Field Repair : 3 seconds channeled Heal on your turret . During the repair, the turret is immune to damage
- Flak Armor stacks with armor pots

Turrets in general:

- Added AoE damage reduction
- Added passive healing of turret when owner is healed
- Renown training is granted to turret as well
- Turrets get 100% of the following stats from owners gear:
* Critical hit rate
* Critical hit rate reduction
* Armor penetration
* Armor penetration reduction

Gun Turret (Sniper):

- Improves your and your turret's range, by 5% per stack to a maximum of 25%.

Bombardment Turret (Mobility / DoT):

- Improves your turret's range by 5% per stack to a maximum of 40%.
- Provided you have at least one Improvised Upgrade stack, allows you to use Path of the Grenadier skills while moving.
- Shortens the duration and tick interval of Path of the Grenadier and Tinkerer DoTs by approximately 5% per stack for a maximum reduction of 35%.

Flame Turret (Defensive Close Combat AoE):

- Improves your chance to Dodge and Disrupt by 4% per stack to a maximum of 32%.
- Improves your turret's chance to Dodge and Disrupt by 8% per stack to a maximum of 64%.
- Increases the radius of any of your AoE skills by 6.25% per stack to a maximum of 50%.
- Increases your AoE cap by 2 per stack.
- Reduces your cast range by 5% per stack to a minimum of 60% of its normal value.

[Shanell]

Engi and magus are fine.

I mean it's only 20% damage neft for a dps class. What could be wrong here?