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Progression

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M0rw47h
Posts: 898

Progression

Post#1 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:44 pm

Hello ladies and lads.
Today I would like to talk about progression system we have and how it could be "fixed" in long term. I know its difficult topic and many people won't like the idea.
As we all know, current progression system we have is classic vertical progression, where character becomes stronger and can last longer. We got two basic layers of character progression, one is gear and other is renown progression which gives extra points to spend on important stats and also gives extra mastery points. I guess we can generaly agree that there is huge stat difference between RR60 character in vanquisher and RR80 character in sov or using endgame gear mashups.

Lets for example compare on Warrior Priest, 8 pc Sov (with 3 pc Genesis) vs 6 Vanq (with 5 pc Genesis).

Image
Sov has 492 armor, 56 toughness, 39 initiative, 51 wounds, 72 willpower, and 95 resistances more than Vanquisher (so 218 raw stats ignoring armor and resistances).

And mixed variant ignoring resource proc and going for raw stats, also Warrior Priest, 5 pc Sov + 3 pc Inv (with Gunbad Diamond, 2 pc Geneis) vs Vanq (with 5 pc Genesis).

Image
Sov mixed with invader has 336 armor, 10 toughness, 49 initiative, 160 wounds, 108 willpower and 82 resistances more than Vanquisher (so 327 raw stats ignoring armor and resistances).

Insane, right? Keep in mind that guy running in Vanq has also less renown, which is literaly worth either +5% healing crit or 7-9% reduced chance to be crit, which is quite huge as its stacked already with stat difference.

As most of you probably know, there is also different progression system you can see in MMO genre. It's called horizontal progression where gear sets got similar total base stats, but are specialized in different directions, giving more experienced players more gear choices, not necessarily more raw power. It would be exciting, for couple reasons:
  • Makes new player experience better and should help with player retention;
  • No huge power creep, new characters are more competitive since they hit CR40, while they still have less renown points to spend and less set options to pick from or mix;
  • Older sets could have more value for old characters as well, with interesting choice of set bonuses dungeons like Gunbad would be something more than just sad ToK unlock for majority...
Last edited by M0rw47h on Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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mogulprince
Posts: 21

Re: Progression

Post#2 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:14 pm

I'm having a hard time understanding the numbers you posted, where is the A/B comparison of sov and vanq? Maybe it's trivial and I'm just not seeing things, please help me understand.

Lyckansost
Posts: 30

Re: Progression

Post#3 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:23 pm

The last column in the spreadsheet is stat gain or loss if I remember correctly. It's taken from a min/max spreadsheet that someone made. There is a forum post somewhere about it.

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Stophy22
Posts: 444

Re: Progression

Post#4 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:45 pm

Looking at what you posted I see

~160 Armor difference
~50 toughness difference
~100 wounds difference
~10 resistance difference


So I don't think I can "generally agree" that there is a "huge stat difference" in a RR60 vs RR80 character, as that is pretty minimal. The armor is literally a talisman the toughness is 2 talismans, wounds is a nice chunk but typically wounds and armor is the main thing coming from armor progression now a days.

You are correct about Renown Ranking causing a bigger stat gap than gear but Renown Rank is earned in the investment of PvP so I believe it to be fair in the whole ideology that is MMO's:
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mickeye
Posts: 225

Re: Progression

Post#5 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:06 pm

OP didn't explain it well. Last row is difference between the two sets. So it's actually almost 500 points of armor, 56 toughness, 51 wounds or 71 will power for the first comparison.
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M0rw47h
Posts: 898

Re: Progression

Post#6 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:12 pm

Yes, the last row is the difference.
Sov has 492 armor, 56 toughness, 39 initiative, 51 wounds, 72 willpower, and 95 resistances more than Vanquisher (so 218 raw stats ignoring armor and resistances).
Sov mixed with invader has 336 armor, 10 toughness, 49 initiative, 160 wounds, 108 willpower and 82 resistances more than Vanquisher (so 327 raw stats ignoring armor and resistances).
Last edited by M0rw47h on Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mogt
Posts: 480

Re: Progression

Post#7 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:17 pm

the progession is fine, many players forget the main thing, gear is not all, you must learn, to understand your char and the skills. then you are a good players.


on live server was the big problem, the gear dofference was so high, now it is all good.

many players have a problem with it, that they dont smash one button and kill the enemys,

the devs have do a good hob with the progression.

again, gear is not all. please ise the head and the learn curve

M0rw47h
Posts: 898

Re: Progression

Post#8 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:39 pm

mogt wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:17 pm the progession is fine, many players forget the main thing, gear is not all, you must learn, to understand your char and the skills. then you are a good players.


on live server was the big problem, the gear dofference was so high, now it is all good.

many players have a problem with it, that they dont smash one button and kill the enemys,

the devs have do a good hob with the progression.

again, gear is not all. please ise the head and the learn curve
I've 4 characters in RR 81-83 with BiS gear and 4x RR 75-83 in close to BiS gear and few other 70+ chars with decent gear, as I do have those without renown and it far worse gear as well.
Progression may be better than on live, and thats nice, but its still awful grindfiesta driving new people away, especially for people who want play multiple characters on both realms.
What makes it even worse, is how you obtain BiS gear, at reasonable rate you've to grind Forts [Sigmar knows I've went thru Fort grind on 9 characters, may he have mercy on my poor soul] and City Sieges with every character you want to play [and they happen at "random"]. However, the most sad part is, majority of sets are completly useless once you get higher tiers due to stat differences, even if they got nice bonuses on certain pcs or set bonuses.

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Aurandilaz
Posts: 1896

Re: Progression

Post#9 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:11 pm

IMO having 3-5% total stat difference between Vanq to Sov is not bad gear progression "imbalance" - there is Invader inbetween as well, so a jump of 3-4% when gaining higher tier gear is allowed to get people interested in gaining more gear, instead of deciding "vanq is good enough" (conq/vanq is good enough for some of my Alts, even if I prefer mains to be in Sov/Inv).
Gear doesn't require some high skill level, for endgame gear you just need to be online at right times to leech forts or somehow have a sleep cycle that allows joining 3-9am servertime cities. (cities occur most at times when number of players online is at lowest, meaning least people defending against the campaign push).

The bigger stat imbalance lies with the armor rates
as you point out, Sov medium armor is 2840 armor, Sov light armor is 1420 and Sov heavy armor is 4260. All the armor costs same, but different classes gain vastly different product for handing in their Royals.
Is it fair? Maybe, maybe not, depends on your POV.
Everyone is stacking armor, everyone is stacking armor pen/ignores to melt armored targets. Healers with low armor melt faster than those with higher armor, and DPS with light armor melt faster than those with medium armor (+ extras like Mara attacker arm pen ignore or Dwarf +660 racial armor tactic).
New players in T4, once their bolster effect drops down, will have hard time killing anything if their dmg relies on landing physical dmg to armored targets. Any class with armor ignore attackers has benefit over those having to stack WS to land dmg.

When majority of enemy targets are either high/medium armor or armed to teeth with armor talis, then the few remaining targets with less armor are those farmed fastest.

I'd even make the argument that buffing light armor classes to have higher base armor values for the sake of better balance. Making the argument that "medium armored dps have less DPS than light armored DPS" is no longer valid in ROR, or "medium armored healers have less heal output than light armored healer" is something that really rarely happens unless the stars align. Or entirely get rid of light armor and bump them all to same equal medium armor tier to shake up the balance. Something just feels really wrong with the current Risk : Reward ratio when comparing light and medium armor classes.

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Stophy22
Posts: 444

Re: Progression

Post#10 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:18 pm

I'd agree with that statement. I don't feel like gear gap is really the problem. After playing long enough and as Aurandil stated some classes get very armor heavy and as a physical damage dealer it ends up being a very weird progression of damage. As stated, once you lose bolster you just feel useless and weak but this isn't because of gear value differences.

Personally I'd say its specifically because armor goes from (using your data) 500 armor inc, when your offensive stats really just stay put. Lower geared classes can't spec into Ws or use WS talis to make an impact because they don't really have the luxury of wasting renown on it (or do they? ;))

but you take a look at resistances and everyone kinda just stagnates at 600 unbuffed and 900 buffed. And if you lower someones resistances and do magic damage you notice much bigger increases of damage, or if you bypass all resistances directly (abilities like Poison arrow and festering arrow) you notice huge increases of damage.

I like the general idea of the thread of give more diversity but I don't think its accomplished by shrinking the stat value of armor sets. Personally I think if anything dps classes should gain less armor and get more offensive, but we kinda got the 1 size fits all method of balance for armor sets and gear to make sure we have this semblance of psuedo-balance around.
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