The elephant in the room

[wonshot]

I was actually wondering when Destro would start using their morale advantages once again, just because the morale-damage has an internalCD reduction now, doesnt mean that the mitigation morales are any weaker, i would even argue they are even more important now.

As order-realm advantages are still the same after morale-damage nerf half a year ago

[Greenbeast]

You only had 2 black orcs in that fight, we know for a fact destro dps get better heals when a BO is guarding them so maybe you needed a couple more there. The point of the post is that having 4 or more black orcs in a city means constant m4 rotations via the self morale pump as well as morale pump from shamans. The ability to have a tank m4 ready every 40 seconds is a big issue.

Black orc has no impact on healing.
We had 4 blacks orcs, 3 chosen, 1 black guard.
Nobody on destro use black orcs to rotate M4.
Their either use M2 bellow or use M3 to morale bomb to compensate lack of damage.
This ability is not an issue because order has access to morale drains and higher damage pressure at 15-20 seconds.
To the time black orc reach M3 everybody on the order side must have M2 which means every WP has siphon and every tank has bellow.

The issue you had is not M4 on enemy tanks but your own tanks, white lions and Rsw that didn't drain or interrupt anything when your warband needed it.
Imagine playing with 4 sword masters that can use aoe interrupt on 4 dps enemy that use 3 sec channeling at the same time while enemy warband has no knock down.

Bashgutz and Thikboi were the only BO's i saw, sorry i was referring to that twitch vid. Black orcs have everything to do with healing outside of rampage because of their block channel which is also their morale pump. Healers don't need to focus heal tanks as much when they are avoiding a lot of the damage. I've been in cities against black orc's in every party and its been constant morale 4's. Black orc's reaching morales much earlier than order tanks and healers as you state is obviously an issue.

Barrage spam from SW needs Winds from the SM and a lot of coordination to effectively morale drain, unfortunately for SM's its a lot harder to proc cooldown reduction than it is for BO's, where it actually requires skill. AoE interrupts are on a base 10 second cooldown and only 15 feet. So we have 4 sm's, 4 wl, 4 sw, to help somewhat effective interrupts and morale drain, then where do we fit in enough slayers bw and engie and wh? The amount of coordination required is absurd to make it work compare to destro.

We are talking about different cities I think.
It's harder to kill black orc with guard damage that's true but you can always try to heal debuff the tank as well, right?

Morale pump has ICD. You can't proc it more often with block channel.
It works the same as for chosen. The only difference is that due to higher block rate black orcs block attacks more often than chosen.

Still as been stated before nobody use black orcs for M4 rotations because your group need to do spike damage. After the nerf of morale damage and removal of aoe heal debuff from zealot destruction have huge problems in closing the fights. The damage is simply very telegraphed and a good execution requires a lot of micro management and knowledge.

You have 8 tanks. Every tank can use taunt to interrupt and this interrupt is undefendable. You have sword master that has an aoe
interrupt, a white lion that can interrupt.
You can't overstack sw, wh, engi. You take one of each. The rest is up to you. I still think that 2-3 slayers is a must. There are many comps you can build.
P.s. Morale drain is a counter play. Your SW don't need to spam morale drain 100% uptime. If it can, it's great but if its not 1-2 casts are enough to bring enemies out of sync. It's just the question if your leader or SW itself have experience to understand when is this moment.

[Greenbeast]

I was actually wondering when Destro would start using their morale advantages once again, just because the morale-damage has an internalCD reduction now, doesnt mean that the mitigation morales are any weaker, i would even argue they are even more important now.

As order-realm advantages are still the same after morale-damage nerf half a year ago

Except that SW, WH, Engi are 100% valid warband picks now and the majority of alliances and guilds understood how to play 18+6 or 12+12.

[lyncher12]

nerf shield morale pumps
nerf distracting bellow

[detrap]

Black orc has no impact on healing.
We had 4 blacks orcs, 3 chosen, 1 black guard.
Nobody on destro use black orcs to rotate M4.
Their either use M2 bellow or use M3 to morale bomb to compensate lack of damage.
This ability is not an issue because order has access to morale drains and higher damage pressure at 15-20 seconds.
To the time black orc reach M3 everybody on the order side must have M2 which means every WP has siphon and every tank has bellow.

The issue you had is not M4 on enemy tanks but your own tanks, white lions and Rsw that didn't drain or interrupt anything when your warband needed it.
Imagine playing with 4 sword masters that can use aoe interrupt on 4 dps enemy that use 3 sec channeling at the same time while enemy warband has no knock down.

Bashgutz and Thikboi were the only BO's i saw, sorry i was referring to that twitch vid. Black orcs have everything to do with healing outside of rampage because of their block channel which is also their morale pump. Healers don't need to focus heal tanks as much when they are avoiding a lot of the damage. I've been in cities against black orc's in every party and its been constant morale 4's. Black orc's reaching morales much earlier than order tanks and healers as you state is obviously an issue.

Barrage spam from SW needs Winds from the SM and a lot of coordination to effectively morale drain, unfortunately for SM's its a lot harder to proc cooldown reduction than it is for BO's, where it actually requires skill. AoE interrupts are on a base 10 second cooldown and only 15 feet. So we have 4 sm's, 4 wl, 4 sw, to help somewhat effective interrupts and morale drain, then where do we fit in enough slayers bw and engie and wh? The amount of coordination required is absurd to make it work compare to destro.

We are talking about different cities I think.
It's harder to kill black orc with guard damage that's true but you can always try to heal debuff the tank as well, right?

Morale pump has ICD. You can't proc it more often with block channel.
It works the same as for chosen. The only difference is that due to higher block rate black orcs block attacks more often than chosen.

Still as been stated before nobody use black orcs for M4 rotations because your group need to do spike damage. After the nerf of morale damage and removal of aoe heal debuff from zealot destruction have huge problems in closing the fights. The damage is simply very telegraphed and a good execution requires a lot of micro management and knowledge.

You have 8 tanks. Every tank can use taunt to interrupt and this interrupt is undefendable. You have sword master that has an aoe
interrupt, a white lion that can interrupt.
You can't overstack sw, wh, engi. You take one of each. The rest is up to you. I still think that 2-3 slayers is a must. There are many comps you can build.
P.s. Morale drain is a counter play. Your SW don't need to spam morale drain 100% uptime. If it can, it's great but if its not 1-2 casts are enough to bring enemies out of sync. It's just the question if your leader or SW itself have experience to understand when is this moment.

With any decent amount of block, it always procs every 3 seconds.

Not nobody, because the cities I've been in it's constantly been the case with 3 or more BO's in the warband. You also have 8 tanks with undefendable intterupts, choppas with aoe interrupt with the pull, zealot and sh punt interrupts that also dont give immunities, aoe kd from mara also a better interrupt. Barrage can be easily defended against, so the 10 seconds with winds helps ensure it does some effect with its morale drain, but like i said requires perfect coordination with an SM to achieve that, which is hard for an SM to have the ability up when required. One SW in the non ST group is not enough to morale drain effectively outside of winds sorry. Not against 100% block rate black orcs.

[Greenbeast]

Bashgutz and Thikboi were the only BO's i saw, sorry i was referring to that twitch vid. Black orcs have everything to do with healing outside of rampage because of their block channel which is also their morale pump. Healers don't need to focus heal tanks as much when they are avoiding a lot of the damage. I've been in cities against black orc's in every party and its been constant morale 4's. Black orc's reaching morales much earlier than order tanks and healers as you state is obviously an issue.

Barrage spam from SW needs Winds from the SM and a lot of coordination to effectively morale drain, unfortunately for SM's its a lot harder to proc cooldown reduction than it is for BO's, where it actually requires skill. AoE interrupts are on a base 10 second cooldown and only 15 feet. So we have 4 sm's, 4 wl, 4 sw, to help somewhat effective interrupts and morale drain, then where do we fit in enough slayers bw and engie and wh? The amount of coordination required is absurd to make it work compare to destro.

We are talking about different cities I think.
It's harder to kill black orc with guard damage that's true but you can always try to heal debuff the tank as well, right?

Morale pump has ICD. You can't proc it more often with block channel.
It works the same as for chosen. The only difference is that due to higher block rate black orcs block attacks more often than chosen.

Still as been stated before nobody use black orcs for M4 rotations because your group need to do spike damage. After the nerf of morale damage and removal of aoe heal debuff from zealot destruction have huge problems in closing the fights. The damage is simply very telegraphed and a good execution requires a lot of micro management and knowledge.

You have 8 tanks. Every tank can use taunt to interrupt and this interrupt is undefendable. You have sword master that has an aoe
interrupt, a white lion that can interrupt.
You can't overstack sw, wh, engi. You take one of each. The rest is up to you. I still think that 2-3 slayers is a must. There are many comps you can build.
P.s. Morale drain is a counter play. Your SW don't need to spam morale drain 100% uptime. If it can, it's great but if its not 1-2 casts are enough to bring enemies out of sync. It's just the question if your leader or SW itself have experience to understand when is this moment.

With any decent amount of block, it always procs every 3 seconds.

Not nobody, because the cities I've been in it's constantly been the case with 3 or more BO's in the warband. You also have 8 tanks with undefendable intterupts, choppas with aoe interrupt with the pull, zealot and sh punt interrupts that also dont give immunities, aoe kd from mara also a better interrupt. Barrage can be easily defended against, so the 10 seconds with winds helps ensure it does some effect with its morale drain, but like i said requires perfect coordination with an SM to achieve that, which is hard for an SM to have the ability up when required. One SW in the non ST group is not enough to morale drain effectively outside of winds sorry. Not against 100% block rate black orcs.

Choppa doesn't have an aoe interrupt. If you refer to GTDC then you must be kidding because it's the same kind of aoe interrupt as aoe knock back. I don't mean knock back as interrupt by the way. It gives free immunities so you can't ST punt people anymore, it is defendable, it can be interrupted.
The only reliable aoe interrupt on destro side is the marauder and it has no clear downsides.
Zealot that goes in for WOI means that his group has -1 healer since he can't cast while channeling and one dps in his group don't have guard and it can be interrupted.
Squig is okay. You can't have more than one tho and his knock back is telegraphed. You usually don't use it to interrupt but to break funnels.

You don't need to spam barrage. You need to use it to bring enemy from the synchronization. Who cares about M4 if they can't sync M2/M3 anymore so they can't kill you! Because you can kill them before they reach M4.
I can only say from my experience playing vs Rescue Team, NGE, LOB, TMB. These premade do so much damage that you don't have time for M4. Healers die 24/7 with guard swaps, tank die from guard damage and so on.
Maybe ask them what are they doing different to you.

[detrap]

We are talking about different cities I think.
It's harder to kill black orc with guard damage that's true but you can always try to heal debuff the tank as well, right?

Morale pump has ICD. You can't proc it more often with block channel.
It works the same as for chosen. The only difference is that due to higher block rate black orcs block attacks more often than chosen.

Still as been stated before nobody use black orcs for M4 rotations because your group need to do spike damage. After the nerf of morale damage and removal of aoe heal debuff from zealot destruction have huge problems in closing the fights. The damage is simply very telegraphed and a good execution requires a lot of micro management and knowledge.

You have 8 tanks. Every tank can use taunt to interrupt and this interrupt is undefendable. You have sword master that has an aoe
interrupt, a white lion that can interrupt.
You can't overstack sw, wh, engi. You take one of each. The rest is up to you. I still think that 2-3 slayers is a must. There are many comps you can build.
P.s. Morale drain is a counter play. Your SW don't need to spam morale drain 100% uptime. If it can, it's great but if its not 1-2 casts are enough to bring enemies out of sync. It's just the question if your leader or SW itself have experience to understand when is this moment.

With any decent amount of block, it always procs every 3 seconds.

Not nobody, because the cities I've been in it's constantly been the case with 3 or more BO's in the warband. You also have 8 tanks with undefendable intterupts, choppas with aoe interrupt with the pull, zealot and sh punt interrupts that also dont give immunities, aoe kd from mara also a better interrupt. Barrage can be easily defended against, so the 10 seconds with winds helps ensure it does some effect with its morale drain, but like i said requires perfect coordination with an SM to achieve that, which is hard for an SM to have the ability up when required. One SW in the non ST group is not enough to morale drain effectively outside of winds sorry. Not against 100% block rate black orcs.

Choppa doesn't have an aoe interrupt. If you refer to GTDC then you must be kidding because it's the same kind of aoe interrupt as aoe knock back. I don't mean knock back as interrupt by the way. It gives free immunities so you can't ST punt people anymore, it is defendable, it can be interrupted.
The only reliable aoe interrupt on destro side is the marauder and it has no clear downsides.
Zealot that goes in for WOI means that his group has -1 healer since he can't cast while channeling and one dps in his group don't have guard and it can be interrupted.
Squig is okay. You can't have more than one tho and his knock back is telegraphed. You usually don't use it to interrupt but to break funnels.

You don't need to spam barrage. You need to use it to bring enemy from the synchronization. Who cares about M4 if they can't sync M2/M3 anymore so they can't kill you! Because you can kill them before they reach M4.
I can only say from my experience playing vs Rescue Team, NGE, LOB, TMB. These premade do so much damage that you don't have time for M4. Healers die 24/7 with guard swaps, tank die from guard damage and so on.
Maybe ask them what are they doing different to you.

GTDC is strong as a random interrupt via it's pull which also prevents cast time abilities from healers for a few seconds as they have to panic run away from the blob they have been pulled into. SM's/WL's aoe interrupt ability can be defended against, although I am not aware if the actual interrupt still is applied if its defended. And like I said it's only 15ft range, an SM or WL has to sit near inside the blob to use it and they should be no where near the middle or front of the blob train to begin with.

What is the point of using the occasional Barrage ability during your rotation when it can be defended against, has a 5 second cooldown and only removes 100 points of morale? Where as the BO gets 4% of morale and chosen 200 points of morale every 3 seconds. If the barrage does land (only hits up to 40ft too so the SW has to be real close) these tanks will recuperate the lost morale very easily.

Your healers should not be dying constantly, if you are doing your guard swaps and taking minimal guard damage then its up to the cross healing and position to delay the assist train. Another reason why AoE interrupt isn't useful because if I have to guard a healer in the backlines from a ST party, what good is my 15ft interrupt for when I'm 100ft away from the main blob.

[Vri]

This Smooth brain thread. Next is BG punt, Hey guys do you think BG punt with 100 hate is a little much ? If used right muh tank or healer is launched like a space x rocket >: L i dont like that. Nerf. Destro stacked BGs and punted all tanks and healers in RvR.

[emiliorv]

Isn't solar flare order's only unique morale drain?

No.
Solar flare drains all the morale (9 targets) => targets go from full morale 4 to cero morale....
but order hava access to other morale drain abilities that drain less but are more "spammable"

Which ones that destro doesn't have?

What about BW M4?? aoe morale drain (24 target cap) on a selfpump class (also 1600 dmg aoe) => probably not much BWs spec for it (maybe in organized wbs)

[Vri]

Can we talk about the big issue guys ? The big one... SWs can kite but not only kite, they can slow and or snare you, while running away, while shooting you with SWs back turned.
Lets talk about how order likes to stack SCs with WHs. Just a complete SC group of hats.
Maybe we should talk about order coming from PVE, unflagged in a certain RvR lake.

Get over tank M4, its fine.