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Order is the new chaos?

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ragafury
Posts: 684

Re: Order is the new chaos?

Post#111 » Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:51 pm

Spoiler:
wonshot wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:24 pm Hi community,
this post is simply to share my personal point of view after been mainly on Order-realm in my time on RoR. I will try my best to keep my BIAS in check but im sure some of it will overflow.
As of right now, and honestly for a good 60% of my time on the server the Destro-realm have had some sort of numbers advantage population vice. it usually swings over to Order in periods but with City grind introduced we are probably seeing the biggest extreme of Destro dominance and it is probably unlikely to change unless a guild swap over, as we have seen in the past. To try and even out the population.
My last big topic I asked the question "why is Order the way it is?" some of it gave me new perspectives to hear what others think but now ill try to give just my own take on what has put Order in this possition.



[Background]
Started as a nolstralgic solo player, made a BW called Wonshot and ran around in scenarios doing timestamp. Got bored and quit. Rejoined the server with Deep And Dry project lead by Sacrx, renamed and geared up in the conq era. Refound interest in the game when i got involved in largescale guild warfare again, after the guild had been on break since GW2 days. Renamed to Bombling and embrased what I think this game does better than other pvp mmos, largescale! Over time the guild lost interest in the server, New world and other distractions came on the radar. Since then ive been part of some very nice groups & guilds and i think all of them have had the same in common they have been striving to be competitive warband guilds. (VII on order pre citylaunch, TC, LBL)
Over the years those guilds are no more for different reasons, but they all have the same in common they could compete and they all struggled to recruit people from Order due to lack of interest as a whole from the realm.

During different timeperiodes of RoR some Destro controversial abilities have been labled as overperforming and almost everytime have I went to destro on my own to test firsthand and see if i agree with the complaints. First the DPS zealot with Winds of insanity, then the invadergear on choppa/slayer after forts were added while testing Gettothechoppa and now im testing the MSH.
Both realms have their own issues and strong suits. But after ive pushed the pve grind and almost done with Royal sets on one char on both realms i think ill share my findings on some areas that really stood out to me.

[Lookingforgroup channel]
On destro side the LFG channel is actually active in hours where there are no Citysieges. You have rare PQ22 raids for pugs, daily City-dungeon pve runs, scenario lowtier groups, and T4 scenario groups during weekend warfront.
On Order there are way fewer pve runs, full stop. PQ22 have I only seen done succesfully with LFG lead by Fenryl. There are some lower tier scenario groups, and same for warfront pug 2-2-2 but again at a way lower rate than on destro lfg channel.

[PVE]
Since Gunbad and Bastion are the same, there shouldnt be too much of a difference.
City dungeons have been a shock to me. On destro every encounter can be boiled down to "dont stand in puddles, kill adds" and maybe the end bosses have a 3rd mechanic that can be soloed handled by the tank moving the boss around. Destro speedruns take about 1/3 less time and even pugs are running with 1tank 3dps.
On Order city dungeons the encounters most guilds cant even succesfully run 1tank speedruns, I've heard of guildies failing 2-2-2 city dungeon attemps due to mechanic misunderstandings. With the archtype imballance on Order not only are these pve runs more rare to get going but they also seem to be more difficult for a pug group. (Tested and gave feedback on these prerelease with Deep And Dry group and maybe we gave feedback that were to match interesting pve encounters, instead of a pugfriendly speedrun contest that destro pve turned into being)

[Endgame pvp]
Both realms can compete and succeed! And I mean that, but for Order they need to fill their setups first. Finding that last tank spot can be an issue with 4 other warbands are also looking for a few tanks to finish their setup. We probably all know the differences for pugging citysiges on the two realms, order get pops destro might not, order have imballance between their archtypes destro seem to have a better spread etc etc etc.
When Order has 8-8-8 setup they can compete and it comes down to leadership, executing the fights and experience. As long as the meta is following in the footsteps of Live Citysieges:
- Everyone bring full aoe
- Some people start bringing a singletarget group and 3 aoe groups
- Everyone bring 1st 3aoe
- Some start bringing 2st 2aoe

As long as there are singletarget viability and Timetokill is not insane then every career can be invited for both realms, as there are room for having WHs and other none aoe specs as long as the players know how to play their class for End-Game-Content. Meaning you might face discord guild-only enemies so you need to match their level of involvement.

[Scenarios]
Imbalance between Order archtypes will often lead to no tanks in scenarios, as the tanks are not enjoying trying to guard and protect all the solo Rangeddps kiting and being all over the place. When the tanks stop attending then the MPDS become unhappy unless they are prenerf Whilelions and can solo, so we start seeing slayers unable to get involved and mdps running around looking for outskirt fights.
Any scenario can upset this issue by having a gear or skill(experience) difference, and at times you will find no healers or lack of tanks on destro too in pug scenarios.
Again the common factor is that setup plays a really big part as the very first step.
Ranked can be cheesed by players with synergy queueing together into the same matches when its suposed to be a SoloQ. It is an issue of too low population but every career on the serve seem to have atleast one skilled enough player out there who can be succesful on their class in ranked 2-2-2 scenarios.

[conclusion]
Order as a realm did for some reason end up being "harder" to pug on, compared to destro. The archtype imbalance would by my guess as to why.
Good balanced setups can win on both sides, both realms have their winconditions and different playstyles over the other realm and this is natural when its a none mirrored game.
I dont think this cultural change will come from the Devs, I can't see how they would even attempt to tacle this issue on Order. It needs to come from within.
So for any order pug player out there, know that there is hope. But it takes effort. Look to your realmmates, join groups guild and alliances with good setups.
There are plenty of guilds out there who are dieing to get new blood and help them fill out their rosters and most of their approach are nothing more than setting up a playdate 2hours two times a week and listen on a discord channel while you get to guard people near you, heal allies who are not out of range and you dont get to solo heal a party. Sounds lovely doesnt it? :D

Nothing about this situation will change from the outside, it starts with YOU Order-realm and it is long overdue.
Well I haven't played for over a year but there isn't much to disagree from my old experience when I read your original post / topic starter.

One point you forgot ofc which is in fact more difficult on order is to build something up from 0.
The guilds which were successful on order had all something in common (phalanx order, tup order, LMN, DND), a strong core of players who mostly know how to play and wanted to achieve something.
So with that being sad, it's harder to keep ppl motivated if you start from scratch.

If PvE takes 10 minutes more, or a flavour of the month class got buffed is just a nuance in the bigger picture imo.
Besides that there was always something found in this game which was / is exploitable or very strong for largescale. (old SH M2, WW bombing when destro had no mirror, SS spam and so on)
It's just about time, theorycrafting, trial and error and detication to find such a loophole.
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emiliorv
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Posts: 1295

Re: Order is the new chaos?

Post#112 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:06 am

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Last edited by emiliorv on Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:14 am, edited 4 times in total.

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zulnam
Posts: 760

Re: Order is the new chaos?

Post#113 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:10 am

Rapzel wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 6:39 pm
Spoiler:
kmark101 wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:45 pm I'm surprised that noone mentioned yet one of the most important reason why Order lacks tanks (and that starts the whole bad setup chain reaction). It's actually very simple.

My theory has always been that even tanks need to have a spec to be able to do some damage (in every game, to keep it healthy). Black ork is greatest example and explain why it is super popular, it's the best designed (tank) class in the game but not because of it's utility.

Regardless of any utilities you have, there must be a spec/build that once in a while you can go and wreck havoc with, otherwise people just get bored playing only "utilities". This is axiom one.

So while tank damage sounds like a negligible topic, it is actually the root of all order's problem: because MMO players mostly, inevitably interested about damage, doing damage (not soaking), that's everyone's nature... now its cool that to be able to function well you do minimal damage, strap on a shield and help your mates... thats cool for 95% of your playtime... but that remaining 5%, where you just want to join an SC and smash people hard... that is whats missing from order tanks... and that's why ppl dont play order tanks. It's an extremely important aspect of the game and it clearly explains why for example knight population drops massively after nerfs like Runefangs and why Chosen population skyrockets after buffs like full spirit damage.

It's no surprise that black orks are the best tanks in the game, it's exactly for this reason, it has the perfect amount of utility, survivability, etc.. BUT also the perfect amount of damage if they spec for it once in a blue moon... so this keeps players motivated to keep playing them even outside of strict guild wb hours of snb'ing.
Have you heard about our lord and saviour Knight of the Blazing Sun?
It's viewed as the best tank in the game for pretty much everything except PvE.
Yet it does the least damage in the game, how does that work according to this logic?
Sure BO is a great WB tank, but it's also probably (the other contender for this being SM) the worst tank in comp. 6vs6 atm.
Sure it may be a pug stomper, but the morale nerf really hit it hard, all it brings is raw damage and stat steal.
Yep. And it's boring AF even in 2h. My big boy sword spec gives more utility instead of damage. Best tank, woohoo. Cheer me on as i crit for 400.

I used to crit for 600 but Mighty Soul was considered overpowered. :roll:
SW, Kotbs, IB, Slayer, WP, WL, SM, Mara, SH, BG

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wonshot
Posts: 1101

Re: Order is the new chaos?

Post#114 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:51 am

ragafury wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:51 pm
One point you forgot ofc which is in fact more difficult on order is to build something up from 0.
The guilds which were successful on order had all something in common (phalanx order, tup order, LMN, DND), a strong core of players who mostly know how to play and wanted to achieve something.
So with that being sad, it's harder to keep ppl motivated if you start from scratch.
Hi Ragga, nice to see you again. (did you loose your legacy 80 title?)
I think that is a solid point you bring up. Something that for sure gives you a clear headstart is when you have a solid foundation to build on. But at the same time I think you can remember in DnD how Order as a realm just showed zero interest in joining when we had to LFG for party4 members.
If we go by your point, then the solid foundation should naturally give more appeal to the warband roster but when people dont even want to join even for pug-fil with no obligations to sticking it out, free to leave whenever, and no future commitments. Isnt there then an issue realmwide? Maybe people dont want to join discord, want to play multiplayer, or have no interest in fighting other players.
I cant put my finger on why people would not want to support order guilds in the past, but if we look at current time we see order guilds winning instances in city from time to time, and when its EU prime the fights are close and order has a fighting chance in the open because the guilds are out on their event-days. But again using an established Orderguild like CNTK they had event to night and for quite a while did they try to find 1tank and 1healer for their event ending, not a group, just two spots that couldnt be filled by an entire realm showing no interest and support. :shrug:
So if the puggies dont see these results as appealing, i simply just dont think any Developer involvement can change that.

The mentioned Pug-warbandleaders who tried going from Destro to order and quickly returned are probably the best example of how the Blue realm is just not supporting teamplay and effort, even when there are leaders ready to recruit.


And generally speaking this topic was never meant to turn into Single ability-balance mudwar, but instead trying to highlight situations where the average pug player on Order can be inspired to put in more effort and enjoy the game's potential.

The fighting spirit has always riddled me on RoR.
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ragafury
Posts: 684

Re: Order is the new chaos?

Post#115 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:26 am

wonshot wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:51 am
ragafury wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:51 pm
One point you forgot ofc which is in fact more difficult on order is to build something up from 0.
The guilds which were successful on order had all something in common (phalanx order, tup order, LMN, DND), a strong core of players who mostly know how to play and wanted to achieve something.
So with that being sad, it's harder to keep ppl motivated if you start from scratch.

So if the puggies dont see these results as appealing, i simply just dont think any Developer involvement can change that.

I think you awnsered your own thread with that sentence.

you can't change that as a developer.

external stimulus will never beat internal motivation. And if there is no internal motivation, an external stimulus works maybe once or twice but not in the long run if it even works once or twice.

I'd just say take this game and it's community as what it's is, and if it's fun keep playing, and if it isn't just pause or quit and come back later. :shrug:
asking the question doesn't hurt, but trying to fix is kinda impossible imo.
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Akalukz
Posts: 1587

Re: Order is the new chaos?

Post#116 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:24 pm

Sulorie wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:46 am
teiloh wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:31 am For the average AM RvR is survival horror where you have to be 80+ feet away from all Marauders or expect to get pulled and die every 30 seconds. It's not like even old pounce where you can simply run backwards and the WL will never catch you until he's so deep in your backline that your group can turn and insta kill him. A Mara with charge and pull up basically has a huge kill radius on anything that's not in heavy armor and without a pull immunity.
When the AM is being pulled, hit M2, while tank swaps guard. This shouldn't result in an insta kill at all. Why I have the impression, that every encounter described as being too strong or in favor of destro, is one order vs multiple destro. That other dude, who claims to be jumped by 2 mSH, who deleted him instantly, is among those lines.
True to a degree, but solo shaman getting pulled has a much greater chance of getting away, if the pet can even get to the shaman in the first place.
-= Agony =-

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anarchypark
Posts: 2073

Re: Order is the new chaos?

Post#117 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:37 pm

kmark101 wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:45 pm I'm surprised that noone mentioned yet one of the most important reason why Order lacks tanks (and that starts the whole bad setup chain reaction). It's actually very simple.

My theory has always been that even tanks need to have a spec to be able to do some damage (in every game, to keep it healthy). Black ork is greatest example and explain why it is super popular, it's the best designed (tank) class in the game but not because of it's utility.

Regardless of any utilities you have, there must be a spec/build that once in a while you can go and wreck havoc with, otherwise people just get bored playing only "utilities". This is axiom one.

So while tank damage sounds like a negligible topic, it is actually the root of all order's problem: because MMO players mostly, inevitably interested about damage, doing damage (not soaking), that's everyone's nature... now its cool that to be able to function well you do minimal damage, strap on a shield and help your mates... thats cool for 95% of your playtime... but that remaining 5%, where you just want to join an SC and smash people hard... that is whats missing from order tanks... and that's why ppl dont play order tanks. It's an extremely important aspect of the game and it clearly explains why for example knight population drops massively after nerfs like Runefangs and why Chosen population skyrockets after buffs like full spirit damage.

It's no surprise that black orks are the best tanks in the game, it's exactly for this reason, it has the perfect amount of utility, survivability, etc.. BUT also the perfect amount of damage if they spec for it once in a blue moon... so this keeps players motivated to keep playing them even outside of strict guild wb hours of snb'ing.

your type is the very source of tank problem.
weak melee line, squishy or solo hitting while detaunted.
none exist frontline make rdps running, left alone healers got focused
healers quit, no heal = even more weak front. down spiral.

even with SnB, half their mind is on how to dps, not on how to reduce incoming dmg and save teammate.
I don't think any of dps minds gonna change.
it's just player type. It's rpg after all.

some of dps come near as tank thru L2P. but they don't last long.
players finding joy from tank/heal, they have right to choose where to put it.
too much selfish solo play made supporter types abandoning order.
I'm guilty on this. maybe I'll seek redemption... someday.
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Ysaran
Posts: 1218

Re: Order is the new chaos?

Post#118 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:40 pm

Bergbart wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:21 pm this^^ I want romper stomper to 40 than turtle 60++ after geting good equipp want romper stomper again.
Kotbs is Boring.
Ironbreaker has good options but not enough
The Sm can make good damage but it feels other than bo.(Style).

Give Ib tree hit Combo and i play one:P
IB has T'ree Hit Combo. IB's version is even better than Bo's one. 3 skill, first tree
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Akalukz
Posts: 1587

Re: Order is the new chaos?

Post#119 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:43 pm

While most of agree with the intelligent posters here, i think we all forget that the vast majority of players are casual. Sure it makes since to roll a slayer as it is the best order mdps, but it requires a lot of support...which most casual players won't get. So they roll a WL, find out the pet is ****, then roll a SW / Engy / WH. Want to know why there are so many destro MDPS, because the classes are survivable. mSH (tanky & decent damage) mara ((tanky & decent damage)) w/e (tanky / great Single Target)
-= Agony =-

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NSKaneda
Posts: 968

Re: Order is the new chaos?

Post#120 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:48 pm

Akalukz wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:43 pm While most of agree with the intelligent posters here, i think we all forget that the vast majority of players are casual. Sure it makes since to roll a slayer as it is the best order mdps, but it requires a lot of support...which most casual players won't get. So they roll a WL, find out the pet is ****, then roll a SW / Engy / WH. Want to know why there are so many destro MDPS, because the classes are survivable. mSH (tanky & decent damage) mara ((tanky & decent damage)) w/e (tanky / great Single Target)

As a casual tank player you can get tonnes of renown and contribution simply by challenging blobs of des (you get renown&contri for every kill), holding the line for people behind you (contribution&renown as well) and if you're really edgy you can buff ppl around you while trying to dps (contri&renown here as well). And if you swap guard than rivers of renown will flow.

Trying to dps since you will never be as effective dps as dps class. Support style really rewards players in this game.
Last edited by NSKaneda on Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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