Order is the new chaos?

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wonshot
Posts: 752

Order is the new chaos?

Post#1 » Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:24 pm

Hi community,
this post is simply to share my personal point of view after been mainly on Order-realm in my time on RoR. I will try my best to keep my BIAS in check but im sure some of it will overflow.
As of right now, and honestly for a good 60% of my time on the server the Destro-realm have had some sort of numbers advantage population vice. it usually swings over to Order in periods but with City grind introduced we are probably seeing the biggest extreme of Destro dominance and it is probably unlikely to change unless a guild swap over, as we have seen in the past. To try and even out the population.
My last big topic I asked the question "why is Order the way it is?" some of it gave me new perspectives to hear what others think but now ill try to give just my own take on what has put Order in this possition.



[Background]
Started as a nolstralgic solo player, made a BW called Wonshot and ran around in scenarios doing timestamp. Got bored and quit. Rejoined the server with Deep And Dry project lead by Sacrx, renamed and geared up in the conq era. Refound interest in the game when i got involved in largescale guild warfare again, after the guild had been on break since GW2 days. Renamed to Bombling and embrased what I think this game does better than other pvp mmos, largescale! Over time the guild lost interest in the server, New world and other distractions came on the radar. Since then ive been part of some very nice groups & guilds and i think all of them have had the same in common they have been striving to be competitive warband guilds. (VII on order pre citylaunch, TC, LBL)
Over the years those guilds are no more for different reasons, but they all have the same in common they could compete and they all struggled to recruit people from Order due to lack of interest as a whole from the realm.

During different timeperiodes of RoR some Destro controversial abilities have been labled as overperforming and almost everytime have I went to destro on my own to test firsthand and see if i agree with the complaints. First the DPS zealot with Winds of insanity, then the invadergear on choppa/slayer after forts were added while testing Gettothechoppa and now im testing the MSH.
Both realms have their own issues and strong suits. But after ive pushed the pve grind and almost done with Royal sets on one char on both realms i think ill share my findings on some areas that really stood out to me.

[Lookingforgroup channel]
On destro side the LFG channel is actually active in hours where there are no Citysieges. You have rare PQ22 raids for pugs, daily City-dungeon pve runs, scenario lowtier groups, and T4 scenario groups during weekend warfront.
On Order there are way fewer pve runs, full stop. PQ22 have I only seen done succesfully with LFG lead by Fenryl. There are some lower tier scenario groups, and same for warfront pug 2-2-2 but again at a way lower rate than on destro lfg channel.

[PVE]
Since Gunbad and Bastion are the same, there shouldnt be too much of a difference.
City dungeons have been a shock to me. On destro every encounter can be boiled down to "dont stand in puddles, kill adds" and maybe the end bosses have a 3rd mechanic that can be soloed handled by the tank moving the boss around. Destro speedruns take about 1/3 less time and even pugs are running with 1tank 3dps.
On Order city dungeons the encounters most guilds cant even succesfully run 1tank speedruns, I've heard of guildies failing 2-2-2 city dungeon attemps due to mechanic misunderstandings. With the archtype imballance on Order not only are these pve runs more rare to get going but they also seem to be more difficult for a pug group. (Tested and gave feedback on these prerelease with Deep And Dry group and maybe we gave feedback that were to match interesting pve encounters, instead of a pugfriendly speedrun contest that destro pve turned into being)

[Endgame pvp]
Both realms can compete and succeed! And I mean that, but for Order they need to fill their setups first. Finding that last tank spot can be an issue with 4 other warbands are also looking for a few tanks to finish their setup. We probably all know the differences for pugging citysiges on the two realms, order get pops destro might not, order have imballance between their archtypes destro seem to have a better spread etc etc etc.
When Order has 8-8-8 setup they can compete and it comes down to leadership, executing the fights and experience. As long as the meta is following in the footsteps of Live Citysieges:
- Everyone bring full aoe
- Some people start bringing a singletarget group and 3 aoe groups
- Everyone bring 1st 3aoe
- Some start bringing 2st 2aoe

As long as there are singletarget viability and Timetokill is not insane then every career can be invited for both realms, as there are room for having WHs and other none aoe specs as long as the players know how to play their class for End-Game-Content. Meaning you might face discord guild-only enemies so you need to match their level of involvement.

[Scenarios]
Imbalance between Order archtypes will often lead to no tanks in scenarios, as the tanks are not enjoying trying to guard and protect all the solo Rangeddps kiting and being all over the place. When the tanks stop attending then the MPDS become unhappy unless they are prenerf Whilelions and can solo, so we start seeing slayers unable to get involved and mdps running around looking for outskirt fights.
Any scenario can upset this issue by having a gear or skill(experience) difference, and at times you will find no healers or lack of tanks on destro too in pug scenarios.
Again the common factor is that setup plays a really big part as the very first step.
Ranked can be cheesed by players with synergy queueing together into the same matches when its suposed to be a SoloQ. It is an issue of too low population but every career on the serve seem to have atleast one skilled enough player out there who can be succesful on their class in ranked 2-2-2 scenarios.

[conclusion]
Order as a realm did for some reason end up being "harder" to pug on, compared to destro. The archtype imbalance would by my guess as to why.
Good balanced setups can win on both sides, both realms have their winconditions and different playstyles over the other realm and this is natural when its a none mirrored game.
I dont think this cultural change will come from the Devs, I can't see how they would even attempt to tacle this issue on Order. It needs to come from within.
So for any order pug player out there, know that there is hope. But it takes effort. Look to your realmmates, join groups guild and alliances with good setups.
There are plenty of guilds out there who are dieing to get new blood and help them fill out their rosters and most of their approach are nothing more than setting up a playdate 2hours two times a week and listen on a discord channel while you get to guard people near you, heal allies who are not out of range and you dont get to solo heal a party. Sounds lovely doesnt it? :D

Nothing about this situation will change from the outside, it starts with YOU Order-realm and it is long overdue.
Bombling RR 90
Alts:
Meatbomb SH[Royal/pve] Powerhouse Zealot [vanq] Chopling Choppa[invader] Notbombling Sorc [sub40]
Controlmage Engi[invader]Orderling WP[onslaught] TheBombMan Knight [invader]
Live Guilds on Karak Norn: Red Guard, Exodus, Crimson
GW2 guild: Red Guard

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Aurandilaz
Posts: 1888

Re: Order is the new chaos?

Post#2 » Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:54 pm

wrote this before and will again; turn every engi player into a tank and suddenly the archtype spread between Destro and Order will be more or less equal.

but good luck convincing all the hundreds of Engi, SW and BW players that their realm as a collective might be more efficient if they didnt insist on going for the lowest hanging fruit which is playing a ranged class in a MMORPG and being able to shoot+kill efficiently from range, hoping that someone else is there to provide a wall of meat as you pewpew from safety.
low risk, high reward - all the way until you get into a city siege with 24 rdps players and face a 8-8-8 destro premade.

M0rw47h
Posts: 825

Re: Order is the new chaos?

Post#3 » Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:56 pm

Aurandilaz wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:54 pm
wrote this before and will again; turn every engi player into a tank and suddenly the archtype spread between Destro and Order will be more or less equal.

but good luck convincing all the hundreds of Engi, SW and BW players that their realm as a collective might be more efficient if they didnt insist on going for the lowest hanging fruit which is playing a ranged class in a MMORPG and being able to shoot+kill efficiently from range, hoping that someone else is there to provide a wall of meat as you pewpew from safety.
low risk, high reward - all the way until you get into a city siege with 24 rdps players and face a 8-8-8 destro premade.
...and then you realize those rDPS players don't give a gobbo about City Siege as "content", just que for gear like everyone else.

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zumos2
Posts: 372

Re: Order is the new chaos?

Post#4 » Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:04 pm

M0rw47h wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:56 pm
Aurandilaz wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:54 pm
wrote this before and will again; turn every engi player into a tank and suddenly the archtype spread between Destro and Order will be more or less equal.

but good luck convincing all the hundreds of Engi, SW and BW players that their realm as a collective might be more efficient if they didnt insist on going for the lowest hanging fruit which is playing a ranged class in a MMORPG and being able to shoot+kill efficiently from range, hoping that someone else is there to provide a wall of meat as you pewpew from safety.
low risk, high reward - all the way until you get into a city siege with 24 rdps players and face a 8-8-8 destro premade.
...and then you realize those rDPS players don't give a gobbo about City Siege as "content", just que for gear like everyone else.
If they dont care they shouldn't make one whine thread after another.
Zumos - Member of Red Guard

Current Guilds: The Unlikely Plan - Deep and Dry - Dark Omen

M0rw47h
Posts: 825

Re: Order is the new chaos?

Post#5 » Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:11 pm

zumos2 wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:04 pm
M0rw47h wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:56 pm
Aurandilaz wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:54 pm
wrote this before and will again; turn every engi player into a tank and suddenly the archtype spread between Destro and Order will be more or less equal.

but good luck convincing all the hundreds of Engi, SW and BW players that their realm as a collective might be more efficient if they didnt insist on going for the lowest hanging fruit which is playing a ranged class in a MMORPG and being able to shoot+kill efficiently from range, hoping that someone else is there to provide a wall of meat as you pewpew from safety.
low risk, high reward - all the way until you get into a city siege with 24 rdps players and face a 8-8-8 destro premade.
...and then you realize those rDPS players don't give a gobbo about City Siege as "content", just que for gear like everyone else.
If they dont care they shouldn't make one whine thread after another.
...but you see same few names complaining, that would be less than 5% of order rDPS population.

Sponn
Posts: 180

Re: Order is the new chaos?

Post#6 » Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:21 pm

People are attracted to the path of least resistance. Order has to exclude almost 3 whole classes from warband compositions to be competitive and that coupled with the constant population disadvantage just compounds the issue.


Overall Destro and Order may be even in the "pie in the sky" situation in your head, but when one side needs to disproportionately crutch on one or two classes for competitive warband play (most want 4 slayers, a couple of white lions, 1 or 2 BWs etc) the issue becomes greatly apparent.


This is a melee meta game, there is collision, in smaller spaces the meleeball will eat you alive and it is effective and ez to "play" - as far as plays in a playbook go.

Destro have 3 meleeballers, Marauder, Choppa, and melee Squig Herder. Alas melee Squig Herder suffers a bit when the pet is dead and having to manage it BUT ON ORDER THAT IS LITERALLY THE CASE FOR 50% OF THE MELEEBALLERS THEY HAVE ACCESS TO- WHITE LION.

Realistically, assuming a normal distribution of players or close to over time, Destro have 50% more meleeballers in a meleeballer meta world. The fact that on average Destro classes are more evenly balanced and fun to play across the board (looking at Shaman vs AM, looking at WE vs WH, looking at Marauder vs SW) and the fact that there is - on average- a constant population advantage for Destro gives us what we have today.

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normanis
Posts: 707
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Re: Order is the new chaos?

Post#7 » Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:28 pm

maby if order tanks wouldnt nerfed so much and their mdps, ppl would play tham. byt rdps has more advantages u can solo while slayer need grp to shine. mara is more tanky , choppa feel more safely around tanky msq and maras that why he can go fulll bank. while order cant do that. and rest story. only way play on order is when u defend or when destro logg order to push city and relog main. i played second week destro side sc event and no problem easy, u que without grp u reach full event influence hour + (depends of pop byt really easy win) . when i play order side its disaster.

Sundowner
Posts: 384

Re: Order is the new chaos?

Post#8 » Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:31 pm

Class distribution problem is order is not a secret, people will gravitate to more polished, self-reliant classes they can enjoy in most of the game content. WL and Slayer (only aoe mdps for order) are in top 5 least played classes in the game. Is this because order players gravitate to more ranged classes period, or nerfed to the ground WL and slayer, which is fun only in balanced group are not very appealing to play? One can only wonder.

The bad thing is given small issues order has added up a lot and cultivated culture you are describing. Devs should be more proactive, or nothing will ever change. You won't convince every order rdps to play slayer or kotbs.

Consolidation of much of the utility/dmg for meta classes (i.e. slayer, best aoe mdg+best aoe utility) is not good for the realm either.

I think devs should focus on polishing order classes and overall creating more options for play for all classes (both order and destro), because the fact that game is mainly oriented to largescale, it doesn't mean solo, smallscale, ranked does not exist and people don't care how their class is performing solo as long as it is good in wb (see. slayer, possibly the best aoe dps in the game and one of the least played classes).

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lyncher12
Posts: 476

Re: Order is the new chaos?

Post#9 » Sun Jan 24, 2021 7:13 pm

Sponn wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:21 pm
People are attracted to the path of least resistance. Order has to exclude almost 3 whole classes from warband compositions to be competitive and that coupled with the constant population disadvantage just compounds the issue.


Overall Destro and Order may be even in the "pie in the sky" situation in your head, but when one side needs to disproportionately crutch on one or two classes for competitive warband play (most want 4 slayers, a couple of white lions, 1 or 2 BWs etc) the issue becomes greatly apparent.


This is a melee meta game, there is collision, in smaller spaces the meleeball will eat you alive and it is effective and ez to "play" - as far as plays in a playbook go.

Destro have 3 meleeballers, Marauder, Choppa, and melee Squig Herder. Alas melee Squig Herder suffers a bit when the pet is dead and having to manage it BUT ON ORDER THAT IS LITERALLY THE CASE FOR 50% OF THE MELEEBALLERS THEY HAVE ACCESS TO- WHITE LION.

Realistically, assuming a normal distribution of players or close to over time, Destro have 50% more meleeballers in a meleeballer meta world. The fact that on average Destro classes are more evenly balanced and fun to play across the board (looking at Shaman vs AM, looking at WE vs WH, looking at Marauder vs SW) and the fact that there is - on average- a constant population advantage for Destro gives us what we have today.
Its a waste of my time to even reply to things like this but I am currently sitting in solo ranked queue trying to get 5 games dying of boredom, so here we go.

Order doesn't have to exclude anything but that doesn't mean you want to stack classes that don't bring anything to the table. Neither side stacks either Engineer or Magus. 1 is super good to have and anything more doesn't bring anything to the table. Napalm and Phosphorus don't stack. Shaman is in the same boat as AM. A good one in the right party can be good but I would never invite a Shaman I didn't know if I was serious about winning. mSH needs choppa/bo or double bo optimally and both classes are usually in short supply. Even with perma cooldown reduction I haven't seen a champion mSH in probably 10 months. rSW morale drain with WW party is still OP. IB is slightly better than BG but guess what, nobody is begging for either and you take what you get. WH and WE are top tier for a single target group, WH more so because Excommunicate cheese in stage 3.

It also turns out city happens randomly and usually at 4am so most warbands are inviting people they are unsure about on classes that are suboptimal but City is for gear, not fun or competitive PvP.

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nailinthehead
Posts: 59

Re: Order is the new chaos?

Post#10 » Sun Jan 24, 2021 7:34 pm

Aurandilaz wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:54 pm
wrote this before and will again; turn every engi player into a tank and suddenly the archtype spread between Destro and Order will be more or less equal.
Ask yourself the question why people play those classes instead on pushing the blame on them.

My opinion is that most Order classes are basically limited to one, Maybe two builds. So they lack the versality some people seek - to play this game the way you enjoy, not the way current meta expects you to.

Engi is one of very few Order classes that you can play in many different setups and roles and more or less but it will work. You can build it around your play style not the other way around. And it doesn't wear a skirt or pony tails on his head.

And that's IMHOthe biggest difference between Order and Destro toons - the feel and the looks. Take for example the SH which is so popular now. Why it is so? Because it has various builds and all of them work. Make Order better looking and more interesting to play and the class distribution will even out.
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