[Zarbix] Talking about class balance

[Earthcake]

Did this guy just say "it is harder to kill a SW than a ranged SH" ?

[Gurf]

MSH is so reliant on other classes to perform in competitive enviroment and has hard counters too... I love all the meme and whine material because its hilarious but on topic you shouldn't give the devs biased and inaccurate information regarding the class... can MSH be annoying sure... everything can in the right hands and played correctly... does it make it more scary than a proper choppa or mara no not really. If you think MSH is OP then slayer is also OP both pretty straight forward classes but some people struggle to put out the damage numbers they should be doing.

In our alliance i team with some competent dps players, and if i was against them id rather face the MSH stack than their choppa's or marauders alts.

You say this as you now main a MSH, the class in aoe spec is ok in theory, the problem comes in that because Destro has 2 aoe cooldown decreasers it means that Big Bouncing is pretty much spammable, meaning that MSH can now put out damage close to Slayer levels while retaining double to survivability and triple the cc and utility of a Slayer. Basically the cooldown decreasers make MSH OP.

That is just to AOE warband spec, the 1v1 is even worse with Pet hitting for double what a Lions does without having to sacrifice anything to get that damage. Overall the class is just completely broken in every spec.

[Charon]

MSH is so reliant on other classes to perform in competitive enviroment and has hard counters too... I love all the meme and whine material because its hilarious but on topic you shouldn't give the devs biased and inaccurate information regarding the class... can MSH be annoying sure... everything can in the right hands and played correctly... does it make it more scary than a proper choppa or mara no not really. If you think MSH is OP then slayer is also OP both pretty straight forward classes but some people struggle to put out the damage numbers they should be doing.

In our alliance i team with some competent dps players, and if i was against them id rather face the MSH stack than their choppa's or marauders alts.

You say this as you now main a MSH, the class in aoe spec is ok in theory, the problem comes in that because Destro has 2 aoe cooldown decreasers it means that Big Bouncing is pretty much spammable, meaning that MSH can now put out damage close to Slayer levels while retaining double to survivability and triple the cc and utility of a Slayer. Basically the cooldown decreasers make MSH OP.

That is just to AOE warband spec, the 1v1 is even worse with Pet hitting for double what a Lions does without having to sacrifice anything to get that damage. Overall the class is just completely broken in every spec.

this ....
I would not complain about msh much if not this combo ..and im fully aware that TUP members were active in this tread and were trying to impose that CD reductors available for two most common des classes do not benefit their realm at all
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=42746&start=20
now you may see why .........
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/874896006

Sorry Wam but i don't believe in your sincere intentions

But don't worry ..according to "not well informed" gossips this time daddy loves his Frankenstein. Maybe because influence of ppl like you.

[Gurf]

this ....
I would not complain about msh much if not this combo ..and im fully aware that TUP members were active in this tread and were trying to impose that CD reductors available for two most common des classes do not benefit their realm at all
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=42746&start=20
now you may see why .........
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/874896006

Sorry Wam but i don't believe in your sincere intentions

But don't worry ..according to "not well informed" gossips this time daddy loves his Frankenstein. Maybe because influence of ppl like you.

Yes watch the video, Big bouncin is meant to be 8 second cooldown, that entire City all you see is Big Bouncin channel non stop, with the occasional Really bad Gas, there is practically no cooldown and the result is 2.5 million damage and 73 deathblows from what is meant to be a Utility class.

You know what happens if you try to replicate that for Order with a SM using Whispering Wind , you get SM is out of melee range or punted so can't trigger WW, or WW is parried or blocked so now on Cooldown without effect a good proportion of the time

Also if you have two classes with decreasers then they decrease the cooldown of the other decreaser meaning they they are up nearly all the time. You can't really do that on Order as you want a KOBS in group and SM is hard to find enough for a WB.

[Foltestik]

or you can counter it with slayer chatter limbz

[Gurf]

or you can counter it with slayer chatter limbz

Not really, the increase from Shattered Limbs is between 1-3 seconds, while decrease is 5 seconds. Plus it's far easier to group cleanse Shattered Limbs with a DOK than it is to single target sever all the decreasers, especially as the decreaser means that the DOK group cleanse cooldown is reduced from 5 seconds to 0

[Charon]

or you can counter it with slayer chatter limbz

Which realm exactly do you want help with such argument ??? Havent you palyed with cd reduction buff ??? especialy waagh ...chop fasta combo

[emiliorv]

the best SH's was all ranged SH's and anyone experienced knows who they are... but who are all the OP MSH i hear so often about?

Easy to explain...mSHs are excellent pugkillers (high mobility + aoe) => since order is mostly pugs...pugkillers become OP

[balvor877]

You are probably living in another world but SW has better burst than SH both in both Ranged and Melee builds. The only CC tools SW lacked compared to SH were AoE knock back and run away tactic and they were both nerfed to ground anyway.

lol, SHs also have a run away ability, base line, no requirements, 30% speed boost, 10s, 60s cooldown, no tactic required. That alone is a game changer when jumped by someone, to escape when zerg surfing or to catch someone. The SW version requires a tactic slot but you cant give up any and it is worse - needs stance switch, only 20% boost and only 5s, with no cooldown.

SW has stuff like Steady Aim which gives you 25% higher crit but 1s longer build up for every ability. It is useless. Nobody using it. There you see... Order only gets stuff with a draw back. Destro just gets stuff without draw back.

[wonshot]

or you can counter it with slayer chatter limbz

Which realm exactly do you want help with such argument ??? Havent you palyed with cd reduction buff ??? especialy waagh ...chop fasta combo

[mSH petless city build only post]
So what is the complaint here about aoe city mSH (without pet)? That the class is not really a burst nor consistant aoe dps role before it has one of the Orcs in the party to feed it cooldown reduction? The video is a pretty good example of how it looks in best case scenario when it has close to full uptime. but I also see no attempts on shutting down the mSH. No taunts, no focus snares to keep a rDPS archtype with no snarebreakers in place. It is a 2-3player combo getting free reign and then it should have high impact, just on that principle alone right?

Dont get me wrong, i think mSH is getting too much tankiness for free for building classcanon and it has low risk gameplay from that + "get out of jail" freecards.
Example: Whole last patch the Squigarmor didnt stack with armorpotion and there was no outcry about it from msh because half of them didnt even notice. if any other class suddenly didnt feel their armorpotion working im sure there would be tears
But the counterplay for shutting a greenskin CDD-comboed AoeMeatball down is very much there. Champchallenge takes the get out of jail freecards away, same with Knight No Escape making them stand there for full duration, Aoe interrupting a Meatball stack makes them deal close to zero criticalmass so SM becomes close to a hardcounter to MSH comps. And honestly with how silly easy a meatball is to spot, every tank in a city instance should be able to land atleast 1-2 taunts to interrupt a meatball during each fight imho.

Suggestion: If people really think MSH is too hard to shut down i say slap a 10% increase on the total Big Bouncing channel on the ability, but make it ramp up the longer you succesfully channel. That rewards good timing of using the ability, and interrupting it. Makes the build a little less braindead.
I started gearing mine to see what the fuss was about, same as i did with my choppa a year ago when orderlings complained about invader choppas. playing these classes gives a good firsthand experience to see how strong the **** is, and how potent the counterplay is.