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Fort Tracking One Month In

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zachary
Posts: 70

Re: Fort Tracking One Month In

Post#51 » Thu Nov 12, 2020 11:09 pm

If there's a way to snapshot level and class composition, that would be a fair bit more precise. "yeah, THAT fort got lost b/c it was all lvl 20s. And THAT one got won b/c the other guys had 1 healer per warband."
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nat3s
Posts: 351

Re: Fort Tracking One Month In

Post#52 » Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:42 am

billyk wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:33 am
Lorsten wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:24 am
L2P Destro
Exactly. Destro can only zerg. That's why you often lose in fort - cap on numbers. That's why you win more often when you attack than when you defend - defensive zerging isn't a thing.

If Destro was actually weaker than Order, you wouldn't make it to fort in the first place because you'd get creamed in oRvR, but as we can see from the statistics, Destro attacks forts more often than Order. Why? Because you can do your 100% AAO zerging in oRvR where there is no cap on player numbers. Then you go to fort and fall apart because you suddenly don't have 2x the toons that Order has anymore. That's the explanation for the data here.

tl;dr: l2p, numbers can only get you so far

Yet when we get to cities, the Order zerg crumbles in a heap. L2P Order? No, obviously not.

The reason is actually more to do with how many organised guilds each side has. Whether playing Destro or Order PNP, TUP, VII etc can generally carry a Fort. However this doesn't change the fact that, having played with these guilds in organised Fort pushes, it's very much easier to cap as Order (hence the 94% win rate) than Destro. The reasons for this are:

1. Engi is a popular class, Magus not so much.
2. BW bombs roughly twice as hard as Sorc.
3. When Destro push funnel they're contending with rampaging Slayers sitting behind a tank wall melting them.

That combination of higher aoe dps and slayers means a Destro push, even by an organised guild rotating challenges and M4s, takes considerably more damage than an organised guild pushing for Order.

So to Wargrim's point... Yes it is true that players, more specifically organised guilds, can secure Destro fort caps, however it is harder (based on being a member of one of these guilds on both sides). Take those guilds out of the equation and on a pug vs pug level, Order has considerably better tools for winning Forts.

If you look at cities, Destro guilds tend to have the upper hand on Order guilds for the most part which should tell you how much more of a challenge it is for Destro guilds to push Forts compared to Order guilds.
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nat3s
Posts: 351

Re: Fort Tracking One Month In

Post#53 » Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:52 am

wonshot wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 2:25 pm
A quick personal opservation ive made since last two weeks of playing on destro,

Very rarely are there any driving organized force. Many times one pug leader steps up and tries to make a 2-2-2 warband but it has yet to be filled by 24players, several times have i seen this 2-2-2 warband only being attempted after first failed Stage3 push, as if this was a sudden suprice that the attackers needed to form 2-2-2 to withstand out outsustain the aoe presure from the order funnelheroes.

Also whenever i peak my head inside said funnel, and playing with char-names turned off and only showing guildnames it becomes pretty clear that order have several "fort focused" guilds who very often are well represented in the order fort-defences. Rescue team, fog of war, Smash etc. Depending on timezone this will swing up or down.

Destro succesful fort attacks seem to be pretty much sole relying on if FMJ has event (feel free to disagree or correct me on this one)

Now if i take my own opservations and match it with this stat data, it seems like order in general have no issue pushing the caldronfortress in the Elf pairring however Destro is almost never breaking Reikwald cauldronfort. This to me, shows that when Order realm get the momentum and ball rolling its very succesful, either because of people switch side and forfeit the defence-idea to secure a city inc. Or because destro doesnt have the same setup with funnel criticalmass maybe lack of rdps and too many mdps, or tanks on destro have mostly swapped to the idea of 2handers and no hold the line to cover the choppaball in a meatgrinder.

TUP has shown that if destro was more organized and having 1-2 warbands to vanguard then forts can be broken even with the mentioned order semi organized 6-12man stacks doing their thing. FMJ has done the same, and even provided an Altdorf city by securing two fort attacks the other night after the destro pugs had left stonewatch and FMJ swapped to this fort, after succesfully claiming the Elf fortress.

Overall I would say destro need to reequip the shields on their tanks, get into propper 2-2-2 warbands so you dont die to a single RoF, and for the love of Mork do not attack Reikwald randomly when other zones are open, this is the first step to breaking the realm momentum and morale.

It's a nice attempt to deflect attention away from Order. Most of the Destro guilds have Order guilds so we know all too well how much easier it is to push as Order. There is a legitimate balance issue. You should know how much harder a BW bombs compared to a Sorc and how potent slayers sitting behind a tank wall on the funnel are.

Your commentary for Forts and City winrates was essentially, Forts = Destro L2P and Cities = Destro OP

You couldn't be more wrong :)
Last edited by nat3s on Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Defraz rr81 Magus
Defrack rr81 Mara
Induce rr77 Shaman
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emiliorv
Posts: 1185

Re: Fort Tracking One Month In

Post#54 » Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:53 am

Parallels66 wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:08 pm
you would actually be suprised how little slayer/BW players there actually are on order, i know alot of guilds are really trying to recruit more because of how little people play those classes, i know from the order guild im in, we have an average of 30~ players on at a time not including alliance and maybe have 1-2 slayers/BW mains.
if your guild refuse to play the best dps in game dont change the fact that they are the best dps in game...

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Gurf
Posts: 520

Re: Fort Tracking One Month In

Post#55 » Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:57 am

nat3s wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:42 am
2. BW bombs roughly twice as hard as Sorc.
Nope, maybe 5% better

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Earthcake
Posts: 152

Re: Fort Tracking One Month In

Post#56 » Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:01 am

emiliorv wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:53 am
Parallels66 wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:08 pm
you would actually be suprised how little slayer/BW players there actually are on order, i know alot of guilds are really trying to recruit more because of how little people play those classes, i know from the order guild im in, we have an average of 30~ players on at a time not including alliance and maybe have 1-2 slayers/BW mains.
if your guild refuse to play the best dps in game dont change the fact that they are the best dps in game...
100% right !
But makes me wonder why destro can use "not alot of ppl playing magus and u know it" as an argument but order cannot use "not alot of ppl playing slayer and u know it" as one.
It s either noone can use this as an argument, or both can.

emiliorv
Posts: 1185

Re: Fort Tracking One Month In

Post#57 » Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:02 am

nat3s wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:42 am
Spoiler:
billyk wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:33 am
Lorsten wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:24 am
L2P Destro
Exactly. Destro can only zerg. That's why you often lose in fort - cap on numbers. That's why you win more often when you attack than when you defend - defensive zerging isn't a thing.

If Destro was actually weaker than Order, you wouldn't make it to fort in the first place because you'd get creamed in oRvR, but as we can see from the statistics, Destro attacks forts more often than Order. Why? Because you can do your 100% AAO zerging in oRvR where there is no cap on player numbers. Then you go to fort and fall apart because you suddenly don't have 2x the toons that Order has anymore. That's the explanation for the data here.

tl;dr: l2p, numbers can only get you so far

Yet when we get to cities, the Order zerg crumbles in a heap. L2P Order? No, obviously not.

The reason is actually more to do with how many organised guilds each side has. Whether playing Destro or Order PNP, TUP, VII etc can generally carry a Fort. However this doesn't change the fact that, having played with these guilds in organised Fort pushes, it's very much easier to cap as Order (hence the 94% win rate) than Destro. The reasons for this are:

1. Engi is a popular class, Magus not so much.
2. BW bombs roughly twice as hard as Sorc.
3. When Destro push funnel they're contending with rampaging Slayers sitting behind a tank wall melting them.

That combination of higher aoe dps and slayers means a Destro push, even by an organised guild rotating challenges and M4s, takes considerably more damage than an organised guild pushing for Order.

So to Wargrim's point... Yes it is true that players, more specifically organised guilds, can secure Destro fort caps, however it is harder (based on being a member of one of these guilds on both sides). Take those guilds out of the equation and on a pug vs pug level, Order has considerably better tools for winning Forts.

If you look at cities, Destro guilds tend to have the upper hand on Order guilds for the most part which should tell you how much more of a challenge it is for Destro guilds to push Forts compared to Order guilds.
You forget rSW => another stacking aoe dps to bring more pressure.

User avatar
Onigokko0101
Posts: 177

Re: Fort Tracking One Month In

Post#58 » Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:23 am

nat3s wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:42 am
billyk wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:33 am
Lorsten wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:24 am
L2P Destro
Exactly. Destro can only zerg. That's why you often lose in fort - cap on numbers. That's why you win more often when you attack than when you defend - defensive zerging isn't a thing.

If Destro was actually weaker than Order, you wouldn't make it to fort in the first place because you'd get creamed in oRvR, but as we can see from the statistics, Destro attacks forts more often than Order. Why? Because you can do your 100% AAO zerging in oRvR where there is no cap on player numbers. Then you go to fort and fall apart because you suddenly don't have 2x the toons that Order has anymore. That's the explanation for the data here.

tl;dr: l2p, numbers can only get you so far

Yet when we get to cities, the Order zerg crumbles in a heap. L2P Order? No, obviously not.

The reason is actually more to do with how many organised guilds each side has. Whether playing Destro or Order PNP, TUP, VII etc can generally carry a Fort. However this doesn't change the fact that, having played with these guilds in organised Fort pushes, it's very much easier to cap as Order (hence the 94% win rate) than Destro. The reasons for this are:

1. Engi is a popular class, Magus not so much.
2. BW bombs roughly twice as hard as Sorc.
3. When Destro push funnel they're contending with rampaging Slayers sitting behind a tank wall melting them.

That combination of higher aoe dps and slayers means a Destro push, even by an organised guild rotating challenges and M4s, takes considerably more damage than an organised guild pushing for Order.

So to Wargrim's point... Yes it is true that players, more specifically organised guilds, can secure Destro fort caps, however it is harder (based on being a member of one of these guilds on both sides). Take those guilds out of the equation and on a pug vs pug level, Order has considerably better tools for winning Forts.

If you look at cities, Destro guilds tend to have the upper hand on Order guilds for the most part which should tell you how much more of a challenge it is for Destro guilds to push Forts compared to Order guilds.
This right here. We have to sweat on Destro to get a Fort, we have to push 2 at once and hope people stay in the first while we flood the second and even that dosent work sometimes. If we ever push a solo fort its pretty much 90% chance to fail.

Meanwhile when we push on Order toons, its ezpz walk right in without morales.
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emiliorv
Posts: 1185

Re: Fort Tracking One Month In

Post#59 » Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:28 am

Earthcake wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:01 am
emiliorv wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:53 am
Parallels66 wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:08 pm
you would actually be suprised how little slayer/BW players there actually are on order, i know alot of guilds are really trying to recruit more because of how little people play those classes, i know from the order guild im in, we have an average of 30~ players on at a time not including alliance and maybe have 1-2 slayers/BW mains.
if your guild refuse to play the best dps in game dont change the fact that they are the best dps in game...
100% right !
But makes me wonder why destro can use "not alot of ppl playing magus and u know it" as an argument but order cannot use "not alot of ppl playing slayer and u know it" as one.
It s either noone can use this as an argument, or both can.
I see one difference => if your guild refuse to play slayer/bw you are losing the best dps (melee and ranged) in game, so its not logic...you are gimping your dps not bringing these classes...probably (if this is true for whole order as he says) one of the reasons for the low city winrate for order...

In the case of destro for magus....well not much ppl play magus bc really theres no reason to play it => low mobility/static pet who dies in 2 secs losing half of your dps/mastery tactics bugged (some fixed in last patch i think)/dissolving mist nerfed and bugged (changed from aoe DD to dot (nerf) and now unable to crit while napalm crits (ticket in bugtracker for months))....so why the hell destro will play magus.

The logic is try to play the "best" from your realm, thats the reason why there are less ppl playing RDPS in destro...simply destro-RDPS are worse than destro-MDPS and also worse than Order-RDPS (probably only magus/engi was on par before last patch, now aoe engi bring much more utility with that 100% uptime disorient).

emiliorv
Posts: 1185

Re: Fort Tracking One Month In

Post#60 » Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:34 am

Gurf wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:57 am
nat3s wrote:
Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:42 am
2. BW bombs roughly twice as hard as Sorc.
Nope, maybe 5% better
Only funnel power + instant fireball barrage (flashfire) brings much more than +5%.

Sorc aoe only can compete Vs BW bombing in melee (sorc still worse) but in ranged aoe sorc is far behind...

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