Call to the development team

[Xergon]

Spoiler:

The recent changes (~nerfs) to different solo specs/classes seem more and more as if the dev team is trying to force people to play certain roles, instead of allowing for diversity and fluidity in builds. I'm a bit worried an unintended side-effect of these changes is taking the fun and longevity out of the game.

I understand you guys want to focus on group play, but a group consists of different players, who more often than not also want to be able to be useful outside of this group play. There is also a solid base of solo/duo/roaming players that love tweaking builds, trying out different specs. Why invest hours and hours in a class that you love because of its roaming abilities, when it can get nerfed at any time and forced into a certain playstyle? I'm afraid it's not guiding players into certain roles, it's pushing them away to different games.

Frankly, and I'm saying this out of a love for the game, I feel like you guys have been taking the 'easy route' a bit lately by just taking away certain specs/tactics that make classes able to participate in smaller settings, and more often than not are the things making the classes fun. Why instead not look at the aspects that make certain classes less attractive and fix those, maybe incorporate some fun elements in those, instead of taking away the fun aspects from classes people are playing succesfully?

Another (smaller) aspect is, in my opinion, the obsessive focus with faction balance. For example in this last patch, taking away the damage on squig leap feels a little weak. Just because Pounce was overperforming for White Lions' single target damage, doesn't mean squigs were overperforming in this department. Yet they get hit with the ban hammer just the same, because 'Faction balance'.

If you really want to look at faction balance, look at the whole faction. Why is order overperforming in forts for example? Well the ranged classes are attractive and fun, people love playing Bright Wizards and Engineers...etc etc...

All in all, this is a call not to lose focus on what brings people to play the game, and what makes warhammer a fun MMO. I understand it's important to have a certain aspect of the game (Warband play) as a focal point, but please don't blatantly nerf and ignore the many other aspects. I feel like it will inevitably drive people away to more diverse games.

Nerfing some tactics or abilities that are completely overpowered in solo play is not about forcing everyone to play in a group or removing the option to play solo.

By making the game both more balanced in 1v1 as well as in group play, It is actually making it possible to play solo on more classes.

If making it more balanced is taking away the fun for you, sorry about that.

I definitely understand where you are coming from, and let me please say that I'm really grateful with RoR, and everything the team has done, and still does very actively. Also it is not out of a concern for myself, but moreso for the overall state of the game.

I just don't think removing things every time something seems to perform well is the way to go in the longterm, you'll just end up with a shade of grey of different classes instead of a colorful spectrum that could have been, to use a color analogy.

I'm also not seeing it having the intended effect of people moving to play more 'underperforming' classes. Rather it will just deter people from investing the time and grind, knowing that any class could get nerfed as soon as it's seen as 'strong' in a certain area.

Why not instead look at the reasons why some classes are played less than others, or seem to perform less well, and focus on bringing balance to those?

And again, I'm really grateful for the time you guys put into the develoment and keeping the game alive and thriving for this long, it's just a concern that I think could be valuable to keep in mind.

So its fine to make class overfeprfoming just to make it more appealing to players ? I hope not. Class appealing is much more complex factor than just its performing or how easy it is to perform. If somoene wants to play Tanks so he can spec Pepega DPS then i prefer him to no play tank at all, its the same issue with all the AM/Shammans whine, they have very well performing DPS spec so pretty sure 60% if not more of them play DPS only and solo or in group with other DPS AM/Sham just to be more cancer. Thats not what game class design system is about, its 3 archetype system in which u want to use all the mechanics and synergies behind those classes. Just because u want to be solo pepega roamer player u should never expect or demand any kind balance in class system that this game has.

[dalen]

The recent changes (~nerfs) to different solo specs/classes seem more and more as if the dev team is trying to force people to play certain roles, instead of allowing for diversity and fluidity in builds. I'm a bit worried an unintended side-effect of these changes is taking the fun and longevity out of the game.

I understand you guys want to focus on group play, but a group consists of different players, who more often than not also want to be able to be useful outside of this group play. There is also a solid base of solo/duo/roaming players that love tweaking builds, trying out different specs. Why invest hours and hours in a class that you love because of its roaming abilities, when it can get nerfed at any time and forced into a certain playstyle? I'm afraid it's not guiding players into certain roles, it's pushing them away to different games.

Frankly, and I'm saying this out of a love for the game, I feel like you guys have been taking the 'easy route' a bit lately by just taking away certain specs/tactics that make classes able to participate in smaller settings, and more often than not are the things making the classes fun. Why instead not look at the aspects that make certain classes less attractive and fix those, maybe incorporate some fun elements in those, instead of taking away the fun aspects from classes people are playing succesfully?

Another (smaller) aspect is, in my opinion, the obsessive focus with faction balance. For example in this last patch, taking away the damage on squig leap feels a little weak. Just because Pounce was overperforming for White Lions' single target damage, doesn't mean squigs were overperforming in this department. Yet they get hit with the ban hammer just the same, because 'Faction balance'.

If you really want to look at faction balance, look at the whole faction. Why is order overperforming in forts for example? Well the ranged classes are attractive and fun, people love playing Bright Wizards and Engineers...etc etc...

All in all, this is a call not to lose focus on what brings people to play the game, and what makes warhammer a fun MMO. I understand it's important to have a certain aspect of the game (Warband play) as a focal point, but please don't blatantly nerf and ignore the many other aspects. I feel like it will inevitably drive people away to more diverse games.

Nerfing some tactics or abilities that are completely overpowered in solo play is not about forcing everyone to play in a group or removing the option to play solo.

By making the game both more balanced in 1v1 as well as in group play, It is actually making it possible to play solo on more classes.

If making it more balanced is taking away the fun for you, sorry about that.

I definitely understand where you are coming from, and let me please say that I'm really grateful with RoR, and everything the team has done, and still does very actively. Also it is not out of a concern for myself, but moreso for the overall state of the game.

I just don't think removing things every time something seems to perform well is the way to go in the longterm, you'll just end up with a shade of grey of different classes instead of a colorful spectrum that could have been, to use a color analogy.

I'm also not seeing it having the intended effect of people moving to play more 'underperforming' classes. Rather it will just deter people from investing the time and grind, knowing that any class could get nerfed as soon as it's seen as 'strong' in a certain area.

Why not instead look at the reasons why some classes are played less than others, or seem to perform less well, and focus on bringing balance to those?

And again, I'm really grateful for the time you guys put into the develoment and keeping the game alive and thriving for this long, it's just a concern that I think could be valuable to keep in mind.

Yes, I agree that nerfing shouldn't be the only solution to balancing stuff. But if you have 2-3 classes overperforming (and especially if it is specific tactics or abilities on those classes), it causes much more issues to buff the other 21 classes, than to just nerf the overperforming abilities.

Similarly when there's 2-3 classes under-performing, it is better to buff them. And there has been a bunch of buffs made to underperforming classes as well on RoR.

That being said, classes should have both strengths and weaknesses. So in some areas or against specific types of opponents they will be weaker, but in certain matchups they will be stronger. That means it is fine for classes to have some strong signature abilities. But it is of course subjective where to draw the line between an overpowered ability vs just a strength of the class.

[AngryVaran]

I definitely understand where you are coming from, and let me please say that I'm really grateful with RoR, and everything the team has done, and still does very actively. Also it is not out of a concern for myself, but moreso for the overall state of the game.

I just don't think removing things every time something seems to perform well is the way to go in the longterm, you'll just end up with a shade of grey of different classes instead of a colorful spectrum that could have been, to use a color analogy.

I'm also not seeing it having the intended effect of people moving to play more 'underperforming' classes. Rather it will just deter people from investing the time and grind, knowing that any class could get nerfed as soon as it's seen as 'strong' in a certain area.

Why not instead look at the reasons why some classes are played less than others, or seem to perform less well, and focus on bringing balance to those?

And again, I'm really grateful for the time you guys put into the develoment and keeping the game alive and thriving for this long, it's just a concern that I think could be valuable to keep in mind.

Yes, I agree that nerfing shouldn't be the only solution to balancing stuff. But if you have 2-3 classes overperforming (and especially if it is specific tactics or abilities on those classes), it causes much more issues to buff the other 21 classes, than to just nerf the overperforming abilities.

Similarly when there's 2-3 classes under-performing, it is better to buff them. And there has been a bunch of buffs made to underperforming classes as well on RoR.

That being said, classes should have both strengths and weaknesses. So in some areas or against specific types of opponents they will be weaker, but in certain matchups they will be stronger. That means it is fine for classes to have some strong signature abilities. But it is of course subjective where to draw the line between an overpowered ability vs just a strength of the class.
[/quote]

Whole problem of balance here is "mirrors" which are not really "mirrors". 24 different classes to balance or 16? Such different mechanics to play BW or Sorc, Shaman or AM. Only four unique classes is Marauder, SW, SH and WL.

[detrap]

The last year or so for the Knight has been one long tragedy of unnecessary nerfs. Knight has never been a DPS monster, and its always been a very strong tanky tank that is best in warband play. Knight has never been a stand out dmg dealer.

The initial change around of MS with Runefang was unnecessary since it didn't make MS more viable, it just nerfed Runefang because dest was mad about the flat stat amounts it granted, even though Chosen was just as strong of a class. In fact, MS was nerfed with 15% + damage as a decently hefty price to pay to get it.

This new change is just as unnecessary, it doesn't make physical builds more viable as a trade off, it just nerfed Knight because, well I'm still not sure why, because big swords and magic seemed too fun (lookin at you next elgi SM)? So physical DPS knight is still subpar and no more MS for you.

So taking stock, they have removed MS as even a base career tactic, and Runefang was made a tree tactic but lost its offensive stats and Knight got nothing in return except 2 more elemental dmg abilities (one of which is a CC that should never be spammed).

So at the end of the day we just get Knight with nerfed Runefang for physical damage (lol) purposes and no magic dmg options. Warlord and Sov have been released and Armor and avoidances are higher than ever but Knights now have less options against it than ever re WS or strikethrough. So this whole journey has been a physical damage nerf to Knight, which already had the lowest damage of the tanks...

IMO, if they don't want any magic dmg on knights, at least give a route to +WS and + Str, even if it cost +15% dmg so that a DPS (relatively speaking) support/solo tank build can be possible

Knights can get upwards of 600 weaponskill and the equivalent or more in strength with around 50% armour penetration. Knights do the least amount of burst compared to the other order tanks but they also increase the ceiling damage for the entire realm. MS was a means to an end until you get any gear with weaponskill and armor pen bonuses. However now that blazing blade does elemental damage; our high strength, high weapsonskill builds can utilize both physical and armor bypass types of damage and free up a tactic slot that MS would take up.

My questions would be why should a knight constantly hit for over 1k with MS and mid T4 armour and still increase the ceiling damage of not just the party or warband but the entire realm? This patch was an understandable change. Maybe players should compare the dps trees and tactics of tanks before they hit T4?

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I'm sorry, but anybody arguing that Discordant Winds was anything but way overtuned hasn't thought it through at all.

The difference between having to deal damage through armour vs resists is huge. I can't be bothered to really dig into the numbers right now, but given the armour meta and fact that it's harder to stack resists means you're probably looking at a 20-40% damage boost with spirit vs physical damage depending on your class/situation.

This tactic allowed 2h Chosen to combine the advantages of a bunch of strong physical abilities with the big damage boost spirit damage provides(while also having access to a resist debuff just for showing up):
Cleave - Undefendable spammable (No reason to ever use anything else, esp against tanks)
Oppression - Armor buff + -15% incoming damage
Downfall - Knockdown
Along with all other generic physical abilities

All with almost zero penalty in a solo/small group environment. Other tank classes have to contend with armour mitigation to get these benefits. Given the relatively simplistic playstyle of Chosen this return just makes no sense from a skill vs performance level standpoint and creates the raid boss style play you see with many highly geared players.

2h Chosen will still be an absolute beast in solo/small group, you just now have to choose between the advantages of spirit damage with Discord abilities vs the strong utility components of Dread/Corruption.

I'm not as familiar with Knight abilities so I can't really comment on MS. Although I do think the fact that you see tons of 2h roaming Chosen and almost no roaming Knights indicates removing the tactic might not have been as needed there.

[Roids]

Only thing now what needs a nerf is Run Away!!!!, breakable on Ability use and here we go.
AoE is to much in this game, thats right, but Def is to much too in this game, 2hand Tank classes outperform like hell. Just make a 24 debuff limit on every char 24 negative effects, 12 dots 12 debuffs. Oldest one gets replaced with newest one, dots till they run out, IF its to much than 18. And AoE u can just get hit from max 4 sources every second rest immunity, that counts for meele too. Last thing is crying about forts, its gets better i think, destro starts to play more range. That was never a problem of balance only to few range to hold order range from free casting.

This are all suggestions and could be possible that heal would be to strong, because Guard and Challange is insane, dont forget that most chars have 0% crit and dodge/disrupt 40%+, but still here would count aoe stacking, one of the 10 aoe dont hit so other can.

[abezverkhiy]

I like this patch. You want to dps while being a tanky class? Fine, go for it. But do not expect to produce any respectable numbers while being thick skinned. It’s just unfair to other dps classes. Tanky whs don’t exist, why should damaging tanks exist? As a wp you’re also facing this dilemma- either heal or damage. Cannot do both. If you want to damage as a tank you will have to sacrifice everything else and result won’t be perfect. Why? Because your job is protection, for damage we have other classes.

[Roids]

Challenge should even be more like a ohhh **** ability if damage is to high, last for maybe 3sec and than autodispell no stacks etc.. could even give some immunity like aoe punt (when used right to take pressure away). So in Zerg play (what devs support ) Challenge should still be up whole time thx to tank stacking but smallscale or ranked it would be less of these 15min fights where u have use morals etc to have a chance to kill but at the end noone dies. Group that is more coordinated and players more skilled wins more. And easiest way to balance would be to just double lifepool for all (only with challange change and some small tuning). There would be no more as full glasscanon hitting squishies for 200damage what normally do 1k+, with more life squishies would have chance to escape full assist or get help from tank or other classes. Abilities like AP drain, str/tough debuffs, resi debuffs would get their use to pump up damage or tune down enemys damage.
Let us be real, now its like meta to take meeletrain with tank whole time challange up and stack meeletrain aoe damage or other front aoe damage, and best if tanks have spammable aoe too. More life would just mean to have time to debuff enemies, to leech ap, to have the time to stagger stun or even get in range of backline.

RoR atm is just stacking aoe heal/damage, no time for debuffs or brainplay.

[Xergon]

Spoiler:

Only thing now what needs a nerf is Run Away!!!!, breakable on Ability use and here we go.
AoE is to much in this game, thats right, but Def is to much too in this game, 2hand Tank classes outperform like hell. Just make a 24 debuff limit on every char 24 negative effects, 12 dots 12 debuffs. Oldest one gets replaced with newest one, dots till they run out, IF its to much than 18. And AoE u can just get hit from max 4 sources every second rest immunity, that counts for meele too. Last thing is crying about forts, its gets better i think, destro starts to play more range. That was never a problem of balance only to few range to hold order range from free casting.

This are all suggestions and could be possible that heal would be to strong, because Guard and Challange is insane, dont forget that most chars have 0% crit and dodge/disrupt 40%+, but still here would count aoe stacking, one of the 10 aoe dont hit so other can.

I strongly doubt that, inspect healers in pug warbands, they stack willpower talis... pug dps doesnt know what FS is, maybe some tanks do.

[nuadarstark]

Yep, sadly you even see full Sov WPs in rando open wbs going out with Genesis Shards, full Will talis, etc.

People act like everyone is stacking armour, everyone is minmaxing, everyone stacks the best classes, etc but for most times, it's the oppossite.