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1 star IC

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Gurf
Posts: 519

Re: 1 star IC

Post#61 » Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:12 am

My Slayer dies in 2 secs when going through door at a Fort 9 times out of 10, especially if enraged, if not enraged then hits about as hard as a SM.

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Acidic
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Re: 1 star IC

Post#62 » Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:16 am

Gurf wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:12 am My Slayer dies in 2 secs when going through door at a Fort 9 times out of 10, especially if enraged, if not enraged then hits about as hard as a SM.
The point is when order defend rampage is a huge difference , it cuts though tanks regardless of what they do. You can not get to them to shatter etc.

Yes when order push a keep rampage does not do so much but order is not facing chopper ignoring defenses on push

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Cadien
Posts: 21

Re: 1 star IC

Post#63 » Tue Sep 29, 2020 1:55 pm

A 24 or 36 hour timer on pairing locks seems like a sensible thing to do. A lot of the issues being raised in this thread deal with aspects of the game that are either more fundamental than forts (e.g., mirror classes not being true mirrors and having different abilities) or player behavior out of the hands of the devs (e.g., realm organization and participation). The devs could address the first and make each class a copy+paste of its mirror, but that probably would have happened by now if it was going to happen; I’m guessing there’s a deeper philosophy regarding that issue, which won’t change because one realm had a hard time pushing a fort during a pairing cycle. As for the second, it seems very hard to try to force player behavior in a certain direction without having unintended - and potentially negative - side effects. It could also be possible that the devs don’t want cities firing off all the time, and that the possibility of the events of this last cycle are exactly what they want. The quarry defense, for example, was one of the most fun instances of play I’ve had during my gameplay time; that certainly wouldn’t have happened if destro had previously pushed Reikwald.

The lockout timer, however, seems like the type of change that doesn’t horribly interfere with gameplay behavior. Most of the time the forts will be pushed before an appropriately long lockout timer kicks in. Players can still get moments like that quarry defense. The defenders, who would ultimately get the negative end of it, would probably have a number of fort defenses done with and under their belt. Just a thought.

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hammerhead
Posts: 308

Re: 1 star IC

Post#64 » Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:34 pm

It seems to me that we, as players, do not quite understand the concept of this server, how much free time, work and personal emotions have been invested in it. The server exists in many respects contrary to how any public activity is carried out today. We were allowed to touch something really worthwhile, and if we could look at this from the other side, then our requests and their argumentation would probably seem at least naive. That is, I also disagree with many things, but when people ask to increase the drop of medals in the оRVR, because you want to come home from work and flop into a chair and have fun (just as one example), this literally devalues ​​the insane amount of work that was invested in this project by the team. I don’t know how to express the thought more clearly, therefore the best illustration would be a piece of the film


Click here to watch on YouTube
(\|)o0(|/)

nat3s
Posts: 450

Re: 1 star IC

Post#65 » Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:42 pm

What a good film that is, painful to watch at times, but the final scene is epic
Defraz rr81 Magus
Defrack rr81 Mara
Induce rr77 Shaman
rr7x AM, Choppa, WL, WH, WE, BG

TenaciousBuf
Posts: 23

Re: 1 star IC

Post#66 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:51 pm

Wam wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:52 am should rename the thread to

order pride is stronger than destro pride discuss?

Order will generally lose to dumb mistakes or weak plays from themselves

Destro will generally lose to self serving interest and morale/emo issues when things don't go their way... there's a reason why GM's had to keep a eye on the fort throwing on destro side alot and the public encouragement of it in region chats. For the most part order will spite themselves to spite destro and don't care about throwing for rank of city for gear progression most of them already progressed a long time... they have more natural realm pride anytime they can stick it to destro lol... destro would sell their grandmother for a few sovereign. Just different sub culture/mentalities.

Destro's spirit is easier to break in forts than order's... where destro can't rely on pure mass zerging as their go to stratergy

Destro is generally slightly more organised and better in open, and order take more advantage of their strengths in siege. It's pretty even just a bit of precision is missing from destro in siege and then come out the emo/edgelords when things don't go to plan and rage quit.

Quarry was nice earlier 8-)
Hm.... you must not play destro much. And if you have not noticed it appears that both realms run zergs, it kind of how the game is set up. As far I can tell, if destro can commit to over 24hr impossible push for reik fort, it shows determination. All I saw really this pass weekend is fort farming which involved throwing zones until destro got tiered of the none sense. Do you feel enough competitiveness in regards to forts defense on your part? Wouldn't you like for destro to be able to actually get in a little for a good fight instead of insta melt at the door way?

TreefAM
Posts: 676

Re: 1 star IC

Post#67 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:05 pm

There's nothing competitive about forts.
You want competitive rvr? Set it up with another guild and go fight it out in empty zones.

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Cadien
Posts: 21

Re: 1 star IC

Post#68 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:09 pm

TreefAM wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:05 pm There's nothing competitive about forts.
You want competitive rvr? Set it up with another guild and go fight it out in empty zones.
There's a lot of truth to that. When it comes to ORvR there's no such thing as an even playing field. Even if you have complete parity with your opponent, one or both of you are likely to get reinforcements at any given moment. I'm sure we've all been in fights where your side was fighting fairly equal forces, and winning, and then all the sudden the other side gets a big influx of players and you get wiped. Or vice versa. It's just part of ORvR.

As far as forts, they're intended to favor the defender. Always have, and always will. It's much the same in keep defense. But in keep defense, you don't have population caps. So you can just throw more bodies at the meat grinder and wear the defender down until you push through. So, while the defensive advantage of regular keeps can be mitigated by vastly superior numbers, the same cannot be said for fortresses. So, obviously, this tends to favor order; while order certainly can zerg hard, it seems destro is more consistent at it.

As a primarily order player, the demoralization that destro felt during those failed fortress pushes is regularly felt on order when 200-ish destro roll over 100-ish order. It sucks. However, during the stalemate Reikland became more fun. Having ~100 more people is not as impactful when the populations are O:400 D:500, as compared to when they're O:100 and D:200.

As far as the class composition argument, of course ranged is going to be favored during keep defense, and destro's melee pain train is going to be less effective. That's the nature of holding a defensive position that cannot be easily overrun. Destro's melee train is so effective in almost every other type of content, though, so I don't really see a problem with that; it's great in cities, it's great in scenarios, it's great in the field. However, if destro wants more ranged, there's a solution to that, and it's one button click away.

So it comes back to what should be done...if anything. The devs could continue to tinker with the population caps, and just let the attacker overwhelm the defender by sheer numbers. That doesn't seem like all that much better of a solution, though. The overpopulated realm, which already had a population advantage, continues to get stronger and stronger. The imbalance becomes incrementally more and more chronic. I'm not going to pretend to know the solution.

Then there's the obvious answer to all of this: maybe the devs don't want fortresses to regularly fall and cities to be fired off constantly. Maybe 3 cities a day was not a good thing to them. Maybe they want to, over time, flatten out the number of characters running around in sovereign. Fewer sovereign-geared people running around is a lot easier to deal with for new players. Of course, that doesn't take the sovereign away from the large number of people who already have it. As someone who is currently trying to gear out sovereign, that's a bit frustrating if true. But, that's the game. It's the dev's world. We just play in it.

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CountTalabecland
Posts: 979

Re: 1 star IC

Post#69 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:35 pm

Acidic wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:56 am I’m a strong believer in that destroy ability to push forts is caused by some of the issues raised here but additionally by
A) knobs - one your guard with no icd
B) slayer rampage from behind a tank wall(no ability to shatter, moral dump can not clear slayers after nerf)

These two issues are big difference when destro pushes and not a factor in order pushes

And yes rampage = root of all evil
Keep telling yourself that so you don’t need to address your own issues. Try playing Order sometime and counting the Slayers properly AoE bombing the door pushes. Most of Order doesnt even push.

Its maybe 1/10 the amount of RDPS bombing with free dps from the back because Destro doesnt have much counter ranged dps. If Slayer was so OP in this setting everyone would play it.

Destro lacks adequate numbers of RDPS inside the lords room. That is the backbone of Order’s fort strategy attacking or defending. The number of MDPS is pretty insignificant in comparison, especially for the purpose of killing tanks.

Are Slayers and rampage good, yes, are they the all powerful boogeyman you make them out to be, no.
Brynnoth Goldenbeard (40/80) (IB) -- Rundin Fireheart (40/50) (RP) -- Ungrinn (40/40) (Engi)-- Bramm Bloodaxe (40/83) (Slayer) and a few Empire characters here or there, maybe even an elf.

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Acidic
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Re: 1 star IC

Post#70 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:01 pm

CountTalabecland wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:35 pm
Acidic wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:56 am I’m a strong believer in that destroy ability to push forts is caused by some of the issues raised here but additionally by
A) knobs - one your guard with no icd
B) slayer rampage from behind a tank wall(no ability to shatter, moral dump can not clear slayers after nerf)

These two issues are big difference when destro pushes and not a factor in order pushes

And yes rampage = root of all evil
Keep telling yourself that so you don’t need to address your own issues. Try playing Order sometime and counting the Slayers properly AoE bombing the door pushes. Most of Order doesnt even push.

Its maybe 1/10 the amount of RDPS bombing with free dps from the back because Destro doesnt have much counter ranged dps. If Slayer was so OP in this setting everyone would play it.

Destro lacks adequate numbers of RDPS inside the lords room. That is the backbone of Order’s fort strategy attacking or defending. The number of MDPS is pretty insignificant in comparison, especially for the purpose of killing tanks.

Are Slayers and rampage good, yes, are they the all powerful boogeyman you make them out to be, no.
The thing is that range defintly has its impact and rightfully so, however Slayers on the side behind the tank wall are a bigger problem for the tanks pushing for Destro. That rampage ignores block and parry and makes guard damage undefendable is kind of guaranteed serious contribution to Destro issues pushing forts.
There is also other things such as on your guard no icd and moral which drain all morals.
Additionally no SH range redo only SW does not help :)

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