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1 star IC

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Cadien
Posts: 21

Re: 1 star IC

Post#71 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:56 pm

Acidic wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:01 pm
CountTalabecland wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:35 pm
Acidic wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:56 am I’m a strong believer in that destroy ability to push forts is caused by some of the issues raised here but additionally by
A) knobs - one your guard with no icd
B) slayer rampage from behind a tank wall(no ability to shatter, moral dump can not clear slayers after nerf)

These two issues are big difference when destro pushes and not a factor in order pushes

And yes rampage = root of all evil
Keep telling yourself that so you don’t need to address your own issues. Try playing Order sometime and counting the Slayers properly AoE bombing the door pushes. Most of Order doesnt even push.

Its maybe 1/10 the amount of RDPS bombing with free dps from the back because Destro doesnt have much counter ranged dps. If Slayer was so OP in this setting everyone would play it.

Destro lacks adequate numbers of RDPS inside the lords room. That is the backbone of Order’s fort strategy attacking or defending. The number of MDPS is pretty insignificant in comparison, especially for the purpose of killing tanks.

Are Slayers and rampage good, yes, are they the all powerful boogeyman you make them out to be, no.
The thing is that range defintly has its impact and rightfully so, however Slayers on the side behind the tank wall are a bigger problem for the tanks pushing for Destro. That rampage ignores block and parry and makes guard damage undefendable is kind of guaranteed serious contribution to Destro issues pushing forts.
There is also other things such as on your guard no icd and moral which drain all morals.
Additionally no SH range redo only SW does not help :)
It also doesn't help that every time my knockback immunity is off cooldown there's always a random friendly choppa coming along to 'git to da choppa' me and restart my immunity for when destro actually pushes.

As for slayers being the reason why destro pushes fail, I don't know. That may be. Destro has the combat logs to look through to see whether the slayers were the ones killing them. I can say that from my perspective on the order tank wall the order side, there usually aren't that many slayers compared to bright wizards, engies and shadow warriors for dps or even white lions. Obviously, it will be different based on each individual fort attempt, but generally I haven't seen as many slayers around. I think that's likely to change as there seem to be a lot leveling up, though. It's possible that a couple of slayers are jacking up the destro pushes, though. I just hold the line and challenge and m4 while **** blows up around me.

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Rekoom
Posts: 109

Re: 1 star IC

Post#72 » Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:05 am

It's a combination of course however the combo of BW/Engie/SW aoe combined with Slayers doing effectively double damage on a tank means our front lines just crumble. I mean we melt THROUGH M4, 1001 Dark Blessings and the group absorb morale! What are we supposed to do?

Talking to a couple of guys I play regularly with, apparently the solution is to make sure we have 3 times the number as attackers OR hope Order wants to farm their 5* Altdorf as much as we want to.
Rekoom - 80+ BO

Qtpiii
Posts: 24

Re: 1 star IC

Post#73 » Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:14 am

diedrake wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:07 am Make that 3 forts defended... W all pug grps for the last one. Anyhoo yes destro needs more organization. Fun fights though thanks for a great day for order :)
Yeah it's really great when order show up with less than 50 people to defend zones, while you all sit in forts that instantly cap at 154 with a queue as soon as the zone locks.

If fort content is all you want gg, watch how long it lasts.

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madmalky2014
Suspended
Posts: 158

Re: 1 star IC

Post#74 » Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:19 am

Slowing the progress of cities is in my a good thing. People in the middle were frozen out for long periods while city was active. There isnt a poblem with forts its just destro dont have a proper strategy to break a funnel. There a fear factor and morale is low they enter with a mindset of a loser thinking bw and engis will farm them from the back. Easy all push not half and the weary willies hanging doimg a bad mexican standoff. Postern push on the destro is far too light. I have experienced even with number way in thier favour they still build morales and do a countdown why. Dry push should be instant and commited by all order do it all the and over in minutes.

Destro need organisation for fort or it will be 1 star ic more often than not.

Qtpiii
Posts: 24

Re: 1 star IC

Post#75 » Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:57 am

BW/Engi/SW aoe then when you push in your got slayers either side of door with rampage melting snb tanks.

But it's fear factor lmao there's no organisation on destro, pug wbs wont even trade healers when they have too many, I saw a pug wb the other day with 5 healers in 1 group and 2 without. It's a shambles and there's no organisation and nobody cares enough, anyone who does is flamed with region chat full of negative speak blocking out any of those trying to set something up.

Eh it's forts and cities some of the worst (but required yes) content in the game. Order are there, city/fort numbers prove it, just come out and give us aao in the lakes again pls.

Rekoom
Posts: 109

Re: 1 star IC

Post#76 » Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:08 am

madmalky2014 wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:19 am Slowing the progress of cities is in my a good thing. People in the middle were frozen out for long periods while city was active. There isnt a poblem with forts its just destro dont have a proper strategy to break a funnel. There a fear factor and morale is low they enter with a mindset of a loser thinking bw and engis will farm them from the back. Easy all push not half and the weary willies hanging doimg a bad mexican standoff. Postern push on the destro is far too light. I have experienced even with number way in thier favour they still build morales and do a countdown why. Dry push should be instant and commited by all order do it all the and over in minutes.

Destro need organisation for fort or it will be 1 star ic more often than not.
You realize a lot of players go back and forth between Order and Destro? So when they log on their Destro character they suddenly lose the ability to play/organize themselves to win Forts?

We don't dry push and wait to build morales because that's where Destro has an advantage: Order tanks don't have the self pumps Destro tanks have. What we should do is make sure every single tank has the self pump slotted and attack the instant most tanks M4 are up while Order is still on M2/3 (which is still kind of iffy because most offensive morales are 2/3 on dps and they will bomb us when we get through the door). I do agree with you we wait waaaay too long before and in between pushes not realizing this is actually giving our advantage away.

That being said we just die through M4 anyway :P.
Rekoom - 80+ BO

TreefAM
Posts: 676

Re: 1 star IC

Post#77 » Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:20 am

Rekoom the people that xrealm from side to side are not the ones doing the organizing, xrealmers don't even matter it's just your everyday boogeyman to chalk up your loss.
Destro don't have any pug leaders that will force people to go into fort with certain builds.
When was the last time ANY of you saw a warband with 4 snb BGs with the middle tree m4?
You don't have to be super organized to defend, if you have enough ranged you'll easily hold whatever, hell you can probably go in witha 4 tanks crossguarding eachother and all the ranged in the back just bombing the doorway.
For attacking you need proper warbands.
And why do the order drypushes work so well, well it's because they know that barely anyone is defending. Just a few nights ago while I was holding one side of the door with my wb, the pug leader who I was organizing the defense with told me that all 6 of his healers didn't even get in for stage 3 and are in jail.

Rekoom
Posts: 109

Re: 1 star IC

Post#78 » Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:33 am

TreefAM wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:20 am Rekoom the people that xrealm from side to side are not the ones doing the organizing, xrealmers don't even matter it's just your everyday boogeyman to chalk up your loss.
Destro don't have any pug leaders that will force people to go into fort with certain builds.
When was the last time ANY of you saw a warband with 4 snb BGs with the middle tree m4?
You don't have to be super organized to defend, if you have enough ranged you'll easily hold whatever, hell you can probably go in witha 4 tanks crossguarding eachother and all the ranged in the back just bombing the doorway.
For attacking you need proper warbands.
And why do the order drypushes work so well, well it's because they know that barely anyone is defending. Just a few nights ago while I was holding one side of the door with my wb, the pug leader who I was organizing the defense with told me that all 6 of his healers didn't even get in for stage 3 and are in jail.
Re cross-realming: not using cross-realmers as an excuse, just want to point out players are players, we are not "demoralized Destro" or "dry pushing Order" the moment we click on the "Play" button of the character screen.

You make great points regarding organization and proper WB/builds and why defending is easier (and that it goes both ways). The WB leaders that are active in my time zone are trying hard to organize (and our guild tries its best to contribute to that by bringing in proper groups) so we should at some point experience a modicum of success but I've yet to experience a full (on both sides) fort take.

Your strategy is most likely the solution, I just don't know if we can afford to be so selective with who we bring in when the player count is what it is and the interest for this type of activity is what it is as Qtpiii was mentioning. Tough nut to crack for sure.
Rekoom - 80+ BO

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Nekkma
Posts: 722

Re: 1 star IC

Post#79 » Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:35 am

At some point you just stop to care. I have probably lost at least 80 % of the forts I participated in (my made up number). At first I tried to win but given the small difference between winning and losing, I have invader on the character I play and that forts are just terrible content in general, why bother? Most of the time a fort comes up I just log off and if I do go in, I get contribution and if it looks like a fail I typically leave after sufficent contribution has been achieved.
Nekkma / Hjortron
Zatakk
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Caduceus
Posts: 653

Re: 1 star IC

Post#80 » Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:54 am

Take it from someone who has played on both sides extensively:

Destro underperformance in keep/fort sieges is mostly due to a prevalence of MDPS over RDPS.

Order underperformance in city is mostly due to a prevalence of RDPS over MDPS.

Organisation does play a role sometimes, but by and large the players on both sides are the same.
"I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving." - Colonel Walter E. Kurtz

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