City Warbands and Pugs class issues

[Integral]

I think just lazily saying it's a non - issue doesn't help. There should be a little more balance in order to optimize play, even on a private server. Unless you want to play by yourself when numbers dwindle.

[Vandoles]

It's RoR, everyone will always tell you "what, you want to participate and have fun without making as much effort as people with significantly more free time than you!?!?!?!?" so we're faced with two options, either the server gradually loses population from those that can't commit as much as the top percentage until the top percentage forms its own top percentage and the others quit and so on and so forth. Or things change, which won't happen because the server happens to be developed by the top percentage.

So in my mind we need a sideways solution. An elegant way to dispose of the issue for me is creating 3 tiers of city parcitipation - the current city, a scenario you can play that will award about the amount of medals you get for a loss up to invader (and possibly 1 royal for a win so unwanted classes can slowly farm that too) and a PQ for sub-r40s, based on the old PQs that were the first city Mythic did, which is basically a short PQ that would award them some small, inferior rewards, but also provide a nice end to a RvR campaign for all the sub-40s who participated. Perhaps it can have a reservation system and give medallions, up to invader for rr60+ people, so they could also just kinda skip city but get a reward for completing the campaign. 1 invader medallion isn't going to break anything anyway.

[Vandoles]

Gravord is right... some fringe classes comparitvely speaking could use a little love but in the right hands can still perform well enough for the most part(there is usually a spot for a niche class) the issue is mostly player issue and being sub par, this is something the player base ignorantly won't accept despite the differences in numbers being clear as day that its a player skill level issue(something dev's cannot balance for). People talk about gear/renown/enemy numbers but i've seen many bad SOV wp's in cities who should perform alot better and be almost demi god status and they wipe easier than the few good AM's which exist.

Also there is not enough population to seperate pug/premade... and half the time alot of premades are fairly puggy... anyone can beat anyone, with the right setup/skill level/mentality.

If you do ranked / sc's... you know Melee premade generally will have advantage its similar in city to some degree... however ranged can still work though if co-ordinated and not just stand still no kiting, healers clump up and not spreading get one CC, face tank all the aoe and die in few seconds.

So if the issue is some people are sub-par, they will not get better, so they will quit as they are constantly stomped and cannot participate. And then the players who are great now will be sub-par to the better players. So they will leave. And then the top players will also split. And they will leave. See where I'm going with this?

[Wam]

Gravord is right... some fringe classes comparitvely speaking could use a little love but in the right hands can still perform well enough for the most part(there is usually a spot for a niche class) the issue is mostly player issue and being sub par, this is something the player base ignorantly won't accept despite the differences in numbers being clear as day that its a player skill level issue(something dev's cannot balance for). People talk about gear/renown/enemy numbers but i've seen many bad SOV wp's in cities who should perform alot better and be almost demi god status and they wipe easier than the few good AM's which exist.

Also there is not enough population to seperate pug/premade... and half the time alot of premades are fairly puggy... anyone can beat anyone, with the right setup/skill level/mentality.

If you do ranked / sc's... you know Melee premade generally will have advantage its similar in city to some degree... however ranged can still work though if co-ordinated and not just stand still no kiting, healers clump up and not spreading get one CC, face tank all the aoe and die in few seconds.

So if the issue is some people are sub-par, they will not get better, so they will quit as they are constantly stomped and cannot participate. And then the players who are great now will be sub-par to the better players. So they will leave. And then the top players will also split. And they will leave. See where I'm going with this?

Morales already got nerfed... effectively the dev's putting training wheels on the bike for people with bad positioning and awareness and allowing more chance of survial, yet people still clump up and die badly after many months of being farmed unsure of what to do... this is a player issue

If people quit because they are bad and cannot join guilds / find advice on how to improve... then that is on them (not devs or other players), it might sound harsh but many people are overly entitled in this game and think they just have to show up to get maximum reward with minimum effort and if they die its a class balance issue not that the other side is putting in more effort lol.

Eventually cities will change over time that is the nature of the beast, as most people's first few main's already geared out and more and more alts gearing up... you get generously rewarded win or lose... and if you do not like cities you can just orvr and also get rewarded... it's not a big deal. Show me games which allow you to get BIS end game gear for losing all the time, i doubt there's many.

I played and lead warbands when getting hundreds of kills you would only get 1,000 renown for keeps and rank up renown super slow... and there was no personal loot system for bags on zone locks... People didn't quit then, if people quit now its usually they either burned themselves out, or have legit reasons and found something else.

Nothing is set in stone, dev's forever tweaking with limited resources and the system is what it is, no system is perfect but it's probably the fairest it can be for a international low pop private server.

I see where the game as come from and where it is now, i've joined pugs multiple times to get easy rewards and be destroyed for minimum effort i don't complain about it i know what i sign up for instead of try hard all the time.

Even WH/SW/Engi can have a role in groups, even if its a bit "limited role" the main issue is you cannot really stack these classes to get much success so they become the problem child, it would require extra work and effort that nobody really would be interested in doing... so you have a overflow of these classes, not much demand for them and it doesn't help that most are played badly too and not to the top level(reinforces the sterotype that they are useless) that only few players can achieve on their respective class. If all engi's could play to nuclearpotato level then the class wouldn't be overlooked as it is. In our A team, we took 1 WH 0 sw/engi. It took niche class spot and served a purpose.

[Vandoles]

Spoiler:

Gravord is right... some fringe classes comparitvely speaking could use a little love but in the right hands can still perform well enough for the most part(there is usually a spot for a niche class) the issue is mostly player issue and being sub par, this is something the player base ignorantly won't accept despite the differences in numbers being clear as day that its a player skill level issue(something dev's cannot balance for). People talk about gear/renown/enemy numbers but i've seen many bad SOV wp's in cities who should perform alot better and be almost demi god status and they wipe easier than the few good AM's which exist.

Also there is not enough population to seperate pug/premade... and half the time alot of premades are fairly puggy... anyone can beat anyone, with the right setup/skill level/mentality.

If you do ranked / sc's... you know Melee premade generally will have advantage its similar in city to some degree... however ranged can still work though if co-ordinated and not just stand still no kiting, healers clump up and not spreading get one CC, face tank all the aoe and die in few seconds.

So if the issue is some people are sub-par, they will not get better, so they will quit as they are constantly stomped and cannot participate. And then the players who are great now will be sub-par to the better players. So they will leave. And then the top players will also split. And they will leave. See where I'm going with this?

Morales already got nerfed... effectively the dev's putting training wheels on the bike for people with bad positioning and awareness and allowing more chance of survial, yet people still clump up and die badly after many months of being farmed unsure of what to do... this is a player issue

If people quit because they are bad and cannot join guilds / find advice on how to improve... then that is on them (not devs or other players), it might sound harsh but many people are overly entitled in this game and think they just have to show up to get maximum reward with minimum effort and if they die its a class balance issue not that the other side is putting in more effort lol.

Eventually cities will change over time that is the nature of the beast, as most people's first few main's already geared out and more and more alts gearing up... you get generously rewarded win or lose... and if you do not like cities you can just orvr and also get rewarded... it's not a big deal. Show me games which allow you to get BIS end game gear for losing all the time, i doubt there's many.

I played and lead warbands when getting hundreds of kills you would only get 1,000 renown for keeps and rank up renown super slow... and there was no personal loot system for bags on zone locks... People didn't quit then, if people quit now its usually they either burned themselves out, or have legit reasons and found something else.

Nothing is set in stone, dev's forever tweaking with limited resources and the system is what it is, no system is perfect but it's probably the fairest it can be for a international low pop private server.

I see where the game as come from and where it is now, i've joined pugs multiple times to get easy rewards and be destroyed for minimum effort i don't complain about it i know what i sign up for instead of try hard all the time.

Even WH/SW/Engi can have a role in groups, even if its a bit "limited role" the main issue is you cannot really stack these classes to get much success so they become the problem child, it would require extra work and effort that nobody really would be interested in doing... so you have a overflow of these classes, not much demand for them and it doesn't help that most are played badly too and not to the top level(reinforces the sterotype that they are useless) that only few players can achieve on their respective class. If all engi's could play to nuclearpotato level then the class wouldn't be overlooked as it is. In our A team, we took 1 WH 0 sw/engi. It took niche class spot and served a purpose.

What I don't understand is why it has to be such a hard issue of "learn to play or **** off"? That was kind of my point, there will ALWAYS be people who put in more effort and people who put in less. So someone will always have to **** off until only the absolute top of the top are left. You even mention "low pop" server yet here we are, me trying to explain how heavily beating down people who put less effort and denying them the chance to even participate lowers the population (fairly obvious).

And all I hear is how "entitled" people are here, yet this isn't some alternate alien universe of existence populated by lizard people, it's a game played by the same people other games are. You're not going to magically change people into obedient little slaves for you to smash while they continuously provide you with meat, people want to be able to enjoy themselves. And that's the crux of the issue - enjoyment. I don't believe anyone really gives a damn about getting defeated in a city, you get your medals, it doesn't take long. What matters is the fun, which just simply isn't there. And this goes for nearly everything - do I complain if I get beaten when I pug? No. But I do hate it when I have to basically sit there, afk and am actually unable to play the game and need to wait until it's over. What kind of a "game" is that to you? Regardless, your opinion of "people are overly entitled, sucks to be you, expect to get destroyed if you're not on other people's level" is the utterly overwhelming opinion of anyone vocal enough to care, so my argument is basically useless. Sadly there's only one single viewpoint here and the others are shouted down.

Oh and who said there's the two extremes of "effort gets you nothing" or "no effort gets you nothing"? There's a middle ground where you get to equally participate but are rewarded differently. And many other balancing efforts. But we're still at the "no effort gets you nothing" level for much of the game.

[Gurf]

The best fights with most skill I have seen is 12-18 man , in those fights I have seen range SW, rsh and others make the difference between win or lose. Hardly any guild on Order can make a 24 man warband, pretty much every warband goes looking outside guild to make up the numbers, and most Des warbands are the same a mix of guilds. So why the focus on 24 man instances where bunch up brainless aoe is king? Why not limit it to 18 man where you will really see full guild instances?

[Rapzel]

Spoiler:

So if the issue is some people are sub-par, they will not get better, so they will quit as they are constantly stomped and cannot participate. And then the players who are great now will be sub-par to the better players. So they will leave. And then the top players will also split. And they will leave. See where I'm going with this?

Morales already got nerfed... effectively the dev's putting training wheels on the bike for people with bad positioning and awareness and allowing more chance of survial, yet people still clump up and die badly after many months of being farmed unsure of what to do... this is a player issue

If people quit because they are bad and cannot join guilds / find advice on how to improve... then that is on them (not devs or other players), it might sound harsh but many people are overly entitled in this game and think they just have to show up to get maximum reward with minimum effort and if they die its a class balance issue not that the other side is putting in more effort lol.

Eventually cities will change over time that is the nature of the beast, as most people's first few main's already geared out and more and more alts gearing up... you get generously rewarded win or lose... and if you do not like cities you can just orvr and also get rewarded... it's not a big deal. Show me games which allow you to get BIS end game gear for losing all the time, i doubt there's many.

I played and lead warbands when getting hundreds of kills you would only get 1,000 renown for keeps and rank up renown super slow... and there was no personal loot system for bags on zone locks... People didn't quit then, if people quit now its usually they either burned themselves out, or have legit reasons and found something else.

Nothing is set in stone, dev's forever tweaking with limited resources and the system is what it is, no system is perfect but it's probably the fairest it can be for a international low pop private server.

I see where the game as come from and where it is now, i've joined pugs multiple times to get easy rewards and be destroyed for minimum effort i don't complain about it i know what i sign up for instead of try hard all the time.

Even WH/SW/Engi can have a role in groups, even if its a bit "limited role" the main issue is you cannot really stack these classes to get much success so they become the problem child, it would require extra work and effort that nobody really would be interested in doing... so you have a overflow of these classes, not much demand for them and it doesn't help that most are played badly too and not to the top level(reinforces the sterotype that they are useless) that only few players can achieve on their respective class. If all engi's could play to nuclearpotato level then the class wouldn't be overlooked as it is. In our A team, we took 1 WH 0 sw/engi. It took niche class spot and served a purpose.

What I don't understand is why it has to be such a hard issue of "learn to play or **** off"? That was kind of my point, there will ALWAYS be people who put in more effort and people who put in less. So someone will always have to **** off until only the absolute top of the top are left. You even mention "low pop" server yet here we are, me trying to explain how heavily beating down people who put less effort and denying them the chance to even participate lowers the population (fairly obvious).

And all I hear is how "entitled" people are here, yet this isn't some alternate alien universe of existence populated by lizard people, it's a game played by the same people other games are. You're not going to magically change people into obedient little slaves for you to smash while they continuously provide you with meat, people want to be able to enjoy themselves. And that's the crux of the issue - enjoyment. I don't believe anyone really gives a damn about getting defeated in a city, you get your medals, it doesn't take long. What matters is the fun, which just simply isn't there. And this goes for nearly everything - do I complain if I get beaten when I pug? No. But I do hate it when I have to basically sit there, afk and am actually unable to play the game and need to wait until it's over. What kind of a "game" is that to you? Regardless, your opinion of "people are overly entitled, sucks to be you, expect to get destroyed if you're not on other people's level" is the utterly overwhelming opinion of anyone vocal enough to care, so my argument is basically useless. Sadly there's only one single viewpoint here and the others are shouted down.

Oh and who said there's the two extremes of "effort gets you nothing" or "no effort gets you nothing"? There's a middle ground where you get to equally participate but are rewarded differently. And many other balancing efforts. But we're still at the "no effort gets you nothing" level for much of the game.

You get to participate, up to the final.

If you don't enjoy it why do you play it?
You could be out in the other open zones and/or play scs while city is going on, or whatever you enjoy to do.
You already get royal crests in zone-bags which allow you to gear up your character to the absolute end gear without ever having to endure a single city.
The game literally already caters and tries to take care of casual players as best it can.

[Vandoles]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Morales already got nerfed... effectively the dev's putting training wheels on the bike for people with bad positioning and awareness and allowing more chance of survial, yet people still clump up and die badly after many months of being farmed unsure of what to do... this is a player issue

If people quit because they are bad and cannot join guilds / find advice on how to improve... then that is on them (not devs or other players), it might sound harsh but many people are overly entitled in this game and think they just have to show up to get maximum reward with minimum effort and if they die its a class balance issue not that the other side is putting in more effort lol.

Eventually cities will change over time that is the nature of the beast, as most people's first few main's already geared out and more and more alts gearing up... you get generously rewarded win or lose... and if you do not like cities you can just orvr and also get rewarded... it's not a big deal. Show me games which allow you to get BIS end game gear for losing all the time, i doubt there's many.

I played and lead warbands when getting hundreds of kills you would only get 1,000 renown for keeps and rank up renown super slow... and there was no personal loot system for bags on zone locks... People didn't quit then, if people quit now its usually they either burned themselves out, or have legit reasons and found something else.

Nothing is set in stone, dev's forever tweaking with limited resources and the system is what it is, no system is perfect but it's probably the fairest it can be for a international low pop private server.

I see where the game as come from and where it is now, i've joined pugs multiple times to get easy rewards and be destroyed for minimum effort i don't complain about it i know what i sign up for instead of try hard all the time.

Even WH/SW/Engi can have a role in groups, even if its a bit "limited role" the main issue is you cannot really stack these classes to get much success so they become the problem child, it would require extra work and effort that nobody really would be interested in doing... so you have a overflow of these classes, not much demand for them and it doesn't help that most are played badly too and not to the top level(reinforces the sterotype that they are useless) that only few players can achieve on their respective class. If all engi's could play to nuclearpotato level then the class wouldn't be overlooked as it is. In our A team, we took 1 WH 0 sw/engi. It took niche class spot and served a purpose.

What I don't understand is why it has to be such a hard issue of "learn to play or **** off"? That was kind of my point, there will ALWAYS be people who put in more effort and people who put in less. So someone will always have to **** off until only the absolute top of the top are left. You even mention "low pop" server yet here we are, me trying to explain how heavily beating down people who put less effort and denying them the chance to even participate lowers the population (fairly obvious).

And all I hear is how "entitled" people are here, yet this isn't some alternate alien universe of existence populated by lizard people, it's a game played by the same people other games are. You're not going to magically change people into obedient little slaves for you to smash while they continuously provide you with meat, people want to be able to enjoy themselves. And that's the crux of the issue - enjoyment. I don't believe anyone really gives a damn about getting defeated in a city, you get your medals, it doesn't take long. What matters is the fun, which just simply isn't there. And this goes for nearly everything - do I complain if I get beaten when I pug? No. But I do hate it when I have to basically sit there, afk and am actually unable to play the game and need to wait until it's over. What kind of a "game" is that to you? Regardless, your opinion of "people are overly entitled, sucks to be you, expect to get destroyed if you're not on other people's level" is the utterly overwhelming opinion of anyone vocal enough to care, so my argument is basically useless. Sadly there's only one single viewpoint here and the others are shouted down.

Oh and who said there's the two extremes of "effort gets you nothing" or "no effort gets you nothing"? There's a middle ground where you get to equally participate but are rewarded differently. And many other balancing efforts. But we're still at the "no effort gets you nothing" level for much of the game.

You get to participate, up to the final.

If you don't enjoy it why do you play it?
You could be out in the other open zones and/or play scs while city is going on, or whatever you enjoy to do.
You already get royal crests in zone-bags which allow you to gear up your character to the absolute end gear without ever having to endure a single city.
The game literally already caters and tries to take care of casual players as best it can.

I'm denied a piece of content. I'm also denied scenarios outside the one pug scenario, serious orvr play since I won't get into the big premades and generally get obliterated and denied to play in the open field.

For some bizzarre reason everyone like you seems to think what casuals want is to win and get gear. Casuals want to participate. The problem is full denial of fun. And if you somehow get that point across, all you get is "quit if you don't like it". Which is baffling considering hardcore players are the ones who play the game more, so they should care about its dwindling playerbase more.

[Rekoom]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

What I don't understand is why it has to be such a hard issue of "learn to play or **** off"? That was kind of my point, there will ALWAYS be people who put in more effort and people who put in less. So someone will always have to **** off until only the absolute top of the top are left. You even mention "low pop" server yet here we are, me trying to explain how heavily beating down people who put less effort and denying them the chance to even participate lowers the population (fairly obvious).

And all I hear is how "entitled" people are here, yet this isn't some alternate alien universe of existence populated by lizard people, it's a game played by the same people other games are. You're not going to magically change people into obedient little slaves for you to smash while they continuously provide you with meat, people want to be able to enjoy themselves. And that's the crux of the issue - enjoyment. I don't believe anyone really gives a damn about getting defeated in a city, you get your medals, it doesn't take long. What matters is the fun, which just simply isn't there. And this goes for nearly everything - do I complain if I get beaten when I pug? No. But I do hate it when I have to basically sit there, afk and am actually unable to play the game and need to wait until it's over. What kind of a "game" is that to you? Regardless, your opinion of "people are overly entitled, sucks to be you, expect to get destroyed if you're not on other people's level" is the utterly overwhelming opinion of anyone vocal enough to care, so my argument is basically useless. Sadly there's only one single viewpoint here and the others are shouted down.

Oh and who said there's the two extremes of "effort gets you nothing" or "no effort gets you nothing"? There's a middle ground where you get to equally participate but are rewarded differently. And many other balancing efforts. But we're still at the "no effort gets you nothing" level for much of the game.

You get to participate, up to the final.

If you don't enjoy it why do you play it?
You could be out in the other open zones and/or play scs while city is going on, or whatever you enjoy to do.
You already get royal crests in zone-bags which allow you to gear up your character to the absolute end gear without ever having to endure a single city.
The game literally already caters and tries to take care of casual players as best it can.

I'm denied a piece of content. I'm also denied scenarios outside the one pug scenario, serious orvr play since I won't get into the big premades and generally get obliterated and denied to play in the open field.

For some bizzarre reason everyone like you seems to think what casuals want is to win and get gear. Casuals want to participate. The problem is full denial of fun. And if you somehow get that point across, all you get is "quit if you don't like it". Which is baffling considering hardcore players are the ones who play the game more, so they should care about its dwindling playerbase more.

It sounds like you are playing a non-meta class and that takes from your enjoyment. It may suck that some classes are indeed harder to stack while others are always needed (and there should probably be a bit of an honest guide/thread on this as well to be honest for new players), but you can always roll a "meta" class while waiting for things to change.

There is plenty of fun to be had in cities, win or lose, on a lot of different classes. It's only when its a pure stomp that things aren't really enjoyable and that doesn't happen a lot in my experience. Getting a basic 2/2/2 with whatever random dps you can find is already giving you a good chance.

I remember this one city I queued solo and we ended up in an instance with no healers facing a proper premade. Honestly I felt worse for them than I did for us. They probably expected a little more of a fight than we could provide.

That's pretty much the only dysfunctional city I can remember, the other stomps usually happen when we face very harsh premades of BW/SL that play really well and are very geared leaving very little opportunity for counterplay and although it is frustrating we always learn a thing or 2 or even kind of "admire" the plays you can do with full groups of geared vets; past the immediate frustration, it gives us the motivation as a guild to improve and get there someday.

My post probably doesn't help you much but from the perspective of a relatively new player to endgame after playing around on the server with lowbies for ages, I am currently having a lot of fun and I think it's a) because I went with a "meta" class but even more b) because I found a good group of people to play with - I know they'd still take me into city whatever class I would want to play as an alt beyond my tank.

[MMXX43]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

What I don't understand is why it has to be such a hard issue of "learn to play or **** off"? That was kind of my point, there will ALWAYS be people who put in more effort and people who put in less. So someone will always have to **** off until only the absolute top of the top are left. You even mention "low pop" server yet here we are, me trying to explain how heavily beating down people who put less effort and denying them the chance to even participate lowers the population (fairly obvious).

And all I hear is how "entitled" people are here, yet this isn't some alternate alien universe of existence populated by lizard people, it's a game played by the same people other games are. You're not going to magically change people into obedient little slaves for you to smash while they continuously provide you with meat, people want to be able to enjoy themselves. And that's the crux of the issue - enjoyment. I don't believe anyone really gives a damn about getting defeated in a city, you get your medals, it doesn't take long. What matters is the fun, which just simply isn't there. And this goes for nearly everything - do I complain if I get beaten when I pug? No. But I do hate it when I have to basically sit there, afk and am actually unable to play the game and need to wait until it's over. What kind of a "game" is that to you? Regardless, your opinion of "people are overly entitled, sucks to be you, expect to get destroyed if you're not on other people's level" is the utterly overwhelming opinion of anyone vocal enough to care, so my argument is basically useless. Sadly there's only one single viewpoint here and the others are shouted down.

Oh and who said there's the two extremes of "effort gets you nothing" or "no effort gets you nothing"? There's a middle ground where you get to equally participate but are rewarded differently. And many other balancing efforts. But we're still at the "no effort gets you nothing" level for much of the game.

You get to participate, up to the final.

If you don't enjoy it why do you play it?
You could be out in the other open zones and/or play scs while city is going on, or whatever you enjoy to do.
You already get royal crests in zone-bags which allow you to gear up your character to the absolute end gear without ever having to endure a single city.
The game literally already caters and tries to take care of casual players as best it can.

I'm denied a piece of content. I'm also denied scenarios outside the one pug scenario, serious orvr play since I won't get into the big premades and generally get obliterated and denied to play in the open field.

For some bizzarre reason everyone like you seems to think what casuals want is to win and get gear. Casuals want to participate. The problem is full denial of fun. And if you somehow get that point across, all you get is "quit if you don't like it". Which is baffling considering hardcore players are the ones who play the game more, so they should care about its dwindling playerbase more.

The apologists , "l2pers" , "get organized" tryhard dessies biased blob of forum meme warriors aknowledge the fact that the game is not balanced and then suddenly make a case for player issues. Its nothing big really .