The State of RvR and the Elephant in the Room

[Caduceus]

UPDATED: All comments I leave in this thread I will also include at the bottom of the OP.

Hey all,

RvR in Return of Reckoning is in a bad state. I've recently come back from a break of several months, and even though RvR already had issues when I left, things seem to have gotten worse. The same is being expressed by my friends (long-time veterans of the game) and it's a daily topic of discussion in public chat channels. In this post I am going to try to do three things. 1) Identify the problem, 2) Identify the causes of the problem, 3) Provide a step towards a workable solution.

Let none of the things I say in this thread give the impression I do not enjoy RoR, or that I do not appreciate all the time and effort that the devs put into updating and maintaining this game. It is out of love for the game that I seek to improve it.


The Problem


The problem I have recognized over a long period of play, and what has been magnified by a several month break, is that RvR is treated less and less like a respected mode of play in itself, and more and more like a mandatory procession on the way to the City Siege. Nowhere is this expressed more clearly than in the statement "RvR is not about close fights and defending tooth-and-nail; it is about flipping zones". This statement echoes the sad truth. When fights are close in RvR, people get bored and start complaining, or worse, switch sides. After all, what is the point in trying to win and delaying the City Siege?

Recent (and less recent) changes seem to indicate that the developers share this point of view. Most notably, the change to no longer being able to spawn inside a sieged keep has devastated the besieged faction's capability to pull off a defense. The result is that during sieges, keeps are very lightly defended and succesful defenses are rare, even if the numbers in the zone would at least suggest a close fight. Instead, there's an awkward split. The siegers are sieging a near-empty keep, while the defenders are sitting on the Battlefield Objectives and running supplies, and this is the shape of RvR until numbers shift. Which they don't. Because what attacker would willingly switch to the defending side, which is twiddling their thumbs just as hard, but also losing. This has gotten so bad that ranking keeps has become close to meaningless. Where 3* and 4* keeps used to be extremely difficult to take, they now rarely are a factor in a successful defense, and are often easily brushed aside.

There are other changes too, which affected RvR. "Tagging doors" with a siege weapon no longer stops supplies from building keep stars; a change undoubtedly implemented to stop unwanted delays of the City Siege. And what of the change that reduced the numbers of fort defenders?

Whether these effects were intended or not, they took valuable resources from those intent on a stubborn defense.

"Why is this a problem, aren't more City Sieges a good thing?"

While more City Sieges isn't necessarily negative, the content of RvR is being hollowed out as a sacrifice.
What I believe needs to be kept in mind, is the fact that City Sieges only happen for (roughly) two hours a day. The other twenty-two or so hours, people are playing in the RvR lakes. Not only that: playing in the RvR lakes is a requirement for City Sieges to happen in the first place. This should be reason enough for RvR to be treated like a valid mode of play and not as a mandatory stop between City Sieges.


The Cause


The cause seems crystal clear, in my mind, and can be summarized in two words: Royal Crests.

MMORPGs are driven by their reward system, and Return of Reckoning is no different. City Sieges produce the most rewards by a large margin, and therefore it is no surprise that it takes central stage in the goings-on of Return of Reckoning. Currently, participating in City Sieges is the only feasible way to acquire the much coveted endgame gear like the Sovereign and Warlord sets.

What is important to acknowledge here, is that this reward system is for a large part the reason for people's drive towards City Sieges, and why people complain when RvR doesn't progress. City Sieges provide rewards; RvR does not.

Consider that half an hour of afking in a lost City Siege can easily provide more endgame currency than a full day of participation in the RvR lakes!

Even with the changes to bag rewards in RvR, which are certainly a step in the right direction, a reasonable balance is still nowhere to be found.


The Solution and the Elephant in the Room


I could easily argue that RvR needs to be rewarded with more Royal Crests, in order to restore the balance which is currently non-existent, but I will not do that. This would hardly constitute a solution, and I think the real problem that needs to be addressed lies deeper and is more complicated.

City Sieges, despite being inherently problematic, are, for some reason, treated like the poster child of Return of Reckoning. There seems to be a reluctance, either in the community or the developer team, to consider City Sieges and open RvR as equally deserving of rewards, even though it is obvious that it requires no more effort or skill to participate in City Sieges than RvR. I believe this is why RvR is being treated as second-rank. It is treated as little more than a temporary speed bump on the holy procession march of City Sieges; and may heaven forbid that a close fight in RvR ever gets in the way. This is the elephant in the room.

Before I continue, I am going to provide a short comparison that should help illustrate why RvR does not deserve to be subordinate to City Sieges:

City:
- Only available during certain hours of the day. Being excluded based on one's timezone is common.
- Players on the overpopulated faction may get excluded because of a lack of instances.
- Players may get excluded from warbands based on class and career path.
- Limited to only one format: 24-man warband.
- Highly repetitive, featuring only 2 zones which are functionally identical.
- Often extremely one-sided, with the losing side often going AFK.

RvR:
- Open (almost) 24 hours a day. No exclusion.
- Can be freely accessed by both factions.
- Players are free to participate with whatever playstyle they like.
- Open to every scale of PvP, from solo, small-scale, to 6-man, 12-man, 24-man or even multiple warbands.
- Diverse, featuring 15 zones, and 6 fortresses, many of which have different dynamics.
- While RvR has gotten more one-sided with recent changes, small victories are still possible.

Honestly, I could go on for a little while, and a comparison between City Sieges and RvR is probably deserving of its own thread.

Now, this isn't to say that City Sieges have no positive features. I believe City Sieges truly shine when organized, high level warbands get a chance to test their skill against one another. However, it is clearly not suited to be the main source of endgame currency for all players. Consider that people can attend City Sieges the moment they hit career rank 40.

What I hope to make clear with this list is that RvR has a large number of positive features which make it the preferred mode of play for many players of all skill levels. The massive battles of RvR are one of Return of Reckoning's major selling points, and the way it engages the entire server is truly unique. It deserves to be a fun experience in its own right, and not to be treated like a stopover.

Onto practical solutions;

- Make it rewarding for players to fight tooth-and-nail in the RvR lakes. Make loot bags a secondary reward, and instead reward players primarily for engaging with each other. I have two possible suggestions for this:
1) Make Invader Medallions and Royal Crests work the same as the other RvR currencies, so that they drop corresponding to the player's renown rank. Perhaps Renown Rank 70+ for Invader and Renown Rank 80+ for Royal Crests. Of course, the drop chance should be very low to avoid exploitation or inflation of the endgame currency, while still rewarding those players who put in a lot of effort in the RvR lakes.

2) Make certain Tome Unlocks reward Royal Crests. These unlocks are often a very good indicator of the amount of time and effort a player has put into a certain activity, and they do not discriminate between the type of activity the player has engaged in to unlock them. I thought of this solution while writing this post, and honestly this seems like a very solid option that adds a new dimension to the Tome of Knowledge. Why shouldn't a player receive a reward for killing 1,000 enemy players? What about 10,000?

- Treat City Sieges like proper endgame content. Stop incentivizing players to half-ass their City Sieges and instead allow only 24-man warbands to participate. Make it a winner-takes-all endeavor, and reward the winners with the type of thing that high-level players want, for example: bragging rights, aesthetics, titles, perhaps some exclusive crafting materials or talismans? Perhaps also endgame currency, but as a cherry ontop instead of a primary reward. It has always seemed strange to me that the results of RvR are there for all the server to see, including guild tags on claimed keeps, but the outcomes of City Instances are private. Never in all of my time of playing RoR have I seen it discussed in public channels how guild X defeated guild Y in their city instance. I'm sure it happens, but I don't see why it shouldn't be given more attention. Isn't this where the best of the best compete?

- These changes to the position of City Sieges, and removing them as a mandatory step on the way to endgame gear, can open up many possibilities in regards to making them truly stand out as endgame content. If they are no longer required for obtaining endgame gear, they do not have to occur as often. If they do not occur as often, the rewards can be reworked. Moreover, the window in which the City Siege takes place can be increased in a way that allows more people to participate when it occurs. For example, why not add the option to requeue after finishing an instance?


These are just some ideas, and not necessarily a finished and foolproof solution to all of the problems I have discussed. They serve more as an indicator for the direction I think RvR should be headed. Note that much unwanted behavior players are exhibiting today is a direct result of the City setup that is put into place. Think of purposefully throwing, (excessive) cross-realming, realm pride being a dirty word, etc. A direct result of the fact that giving up is often more rewarding than trying hard for a win.

Whether you agree with my arguments or not, I hope you can appreciate the effort I put into writing this. I love this game and I hope to see it grow.

Thank you for reading,

- Caduceus

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Post#36 » Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:03 pm

Thank you all for all the reactions and feedback.

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one with concerns about the state of RvR.

I've read every reaction so far, and what I think is important to take into account is the following:

Together we can think of many ways to make RvR more engaging, and less of a procession. But with the current interaction between city and RvR this would likely be counterproductive. After all, what is the point of making RvR take longer, when people would rather rush through it to get their Royal Crests? It will only make undesirable behavior from players (advocating to throw/xrealming/complaining about stalemates) more likely to happen. This reward system is the root of a lot of our issues, and I think it needs to be addressed before we think about how to make RvR more engaging.

Another thing I'd like to add, is that it is not my intention to detract from people who enjoy City Sieges. I am very much in favor of having both forms of PvP exist along side each other so everyone can play in ways they enjoy the most. I just don't think the way RvR is suffering as a result of being a means to City Sieges is a desirable situation. When I stated it doesn't require more skill to participate in city than it does in RvR, I meant that in a very literal sense. Anyone can queue for city, just like anyone can enter the RvR lakes.

All in all, I think the current interaction between RvR and City Sieges is having negative effects on the quality of RvR. The main culprit here is the fact that City Sieges reward so much more Royal Crests. If it wasn't for the big rewards City Sieges provide, many people would not queue for city, especially those people who PUG cities just to get their crests.

I think rewarding people for spending time in RvR and engaging with the opposing faction will kill two birds with one stone. It will make people want to spend time in RvR again, and make good fights in RvR desirable, and it will increase the quality of City Sieges by not making City a mandatory stop for everyone who wants to get Royal Crests.

[Gurf]

Outer door keep defences are now pretty much non existent, which is a shame. It's now too difficult to defend a keep unless you have equal numbers, which is a bad development.

Removing door tagging was a good thing though, that just lead to toxic griefing behaviour.

Not sure what the solutions are but a system needs to be in place which encourages fighting over BO's for the attacking side, I can see what the Devs were trying to do with using supplies to get into keeps but it doesn't really work as once the attacking side has 2 stars they can just abandon the Bo's because a few individuals getting to keep with flight master makes no difference.

Maybe holding Bo's makes door weaker , holding 0 Bo's makes it very slow to break down door, something to encourage splitting of forces for attackers and some realm organisation to break up zerging. I know you can return supplies to heal door but rarely is that used to make a difference.

[Sinisterror]

Very good post and idea's. It feels like when i do join parties and not solo roam, there is this weird dont look for fights or if possible avoid them. Some days ago i was in wb saphery rvr and they did nothing but guard supply and take them to keep, and everytime i saw enemy i went to attack them and killed rr 60+ choppa with my rank 36 wh and i got kicked from the wb because i actually want to **** fight. Also when i solo roam so many people just run away even if higher rank and most are because im avoiding lvl 40 so i can have good fights in scenarios sometimes. Ive played War since 08 and ror instantly so i have some chars that are rank 40 and rr 23 and i have every char except kotbs. I would really really realllllly love if there was 1 zone always open for rvr(not campaign) and it would be only for under 40 chars but introduce debolster back and make new overlord/imperator like gear. Debolstered lvl 40's could do tier 2-3 scs as well. I just want to roam small scale and solo and enjoy the fights which is not happening now almost ever, very different mentality in ror it feels like when comparing back to live

OK back to your post. I think only way is rr60+ people drop invader meds and rr70+ royals with low chance but a chance. I also think there should be at least one item even invader and warlord/sove that drops in rvr (same for sc gear but in scs) be it jewelry or belt but something needs to drop from kills that is interesting. New Influence rewards in rvr AND scs would also make alot of sense.

Now playing war common mentality is " avoid fighting as much as possible " Still massive respect for everyone that made this BEST PVP MMORPG EVER possible to play again, but the pvp is missing ;(

[Drys]

I agree. The lack of outer defense does take a lot of the fun out of RVR for me. It seems like it's a "zoom to city".

I get what devs were trying to do. One option could be for turning a supply box in to Keep Flight Master activates the flight master for 15 min for anyone in the realm. Not just guild members/WB/etc. You can funnel outer, lose, then with one box have enough time to get enough people back to inner to mount a reasonable inner defense.

[Przepraszam]

Great post :*

[emiliorv]

Outer door keep defences are now pretty much non existent, which is a shame. It's now too difficult to defend a keep unless you have equal numbers, which is a bad development.

Removing door tagging was a good thing though, that just lead to toxic griefing behaviour.

Not sure what the solutions are but a system needs to be in place which encourages fighting over BO's for the attacking side, I can see what the Devs were trying to do with using supplies to get into keeps but it doesn't really work as once the attacking side has 2 stars they can just abandon the Bo's because a few individuals getting to keep with flight master makes no difference.

Maybe holding Bo's makes door weaker , holding 0 Bo's makes it very slow to break down door, something to encourage splitting of forces for attackers and some realm organisation to break up zerging. I know you can return supplies to heal door but rarely is that used to make a difference.

-Increase the % that each supply repair door, enough to make siege noticeable longer. => same for Lord health/dmg. Atm suplies only matters to upgrade keep, once siege started are useless except for RP/inf/contri farm.
-Make holding BOs matter => decrease the dmg took by door/lord for each BO that defenders hold.

[TreefAM]

Make supplies take longer to spawn, or give less so you won't have those instant 2star keeps so fast after a zone unlocks.
You can still roam around and delete warbands, but the sieges are starting way to fast and just killing the fun, and at that point you have to decide "Will I help my realm take this zone, or let them get wiped so I can continue roaming with my wb?"

[lifeson]

Some nice ideas there.
But this statement "it requires no more effort or skill to participate in City Sieges than RvR" is not true.

Probably one of the main reasons destro dominate city is because they have more teams and guilds who are willing to take more care about how they spec for city, how they practice tactics and team compositions. Yes, the gear plays a part too of course.
In oRVR you can turn up as, just an example, an aoe engineer, toss a few grenades and reap the rr while not actually making much of a difference to focused kills, pull the boss from outside the keep with your turret, go afk.....and get a gold bag.

The difference in effort and skill is vast.

[Przepraszam]

Some nice ideas there.
But this statement "it requires no more effort or skill to participate in City Sieges than RvR" is not true.

Probably one of the main reasons destro dominate city is because they have more teams and guilds who are willing to take more care about how they spec for city, how they practice tactics and team compositions. Yes, the gear plays a part too of course.
In oRVR you can turn up as, just an example, an aoe engineer, toss a few grenades and reap the rr while not actually making much of a difference to focused kills, pull the boss from outside the keep with your turret, go afk.....and get a gold bag.

The difference in effort and skill is vast.

I see an engeneer expert right there....

[lyncher12]

royals from kills instantly fixes the problems. warband play suddenly becomes inefficient for that and promotes the underdog.

right now the only thing going on in orvr is keep siege and ants running supplies. as a group you can't really do **** outside of kill solos because there is literally only ever warbands out. is it a surprise people want zone flips when its literally the only way to get what they want? there is no incentive to do orvr other than trying to flip the zone but theres 300 stubborn bastards on the other side trying to stop you from doing that, hence multiple hours of stalemate and a couple vanquisher medallions. worth.