Percieved Bias and Game Balancing

[farng84]

This is probably the bigger issue, tanks looking for dps. That’s not the tanks things to do. Tanks dps is just a bonus everything else matters. Damage reduction, guard ... reducing damage is not only a snb thing.
[/quote]

Agree, if you play tank you have to understand you can't get in par with mdps on the chart, and if you do is them being bad not you being awesome. Even when you play 2h guarding the party and playing the tank role should be the priority (guard, reduce dmg, body block the way to your squishes), you just bring some different utilities to the party.
Same for dps healer, I understand it, it's fine (and fun I guess)...but at least rez me if I died in front of you and the fight moved on... or throw a hot here and there if you have 1 sec time. Nobody would ask for more

[ActAppalled]

Class balance is irrelevant, you could give order a huge buff to all classes making them out perform destruction they would still lose to destruction if the destruction faction was more organised. Same goes if order were more organised than destruction.

Except when the SW got buffed and the Destro morale advantage removed, Order did start winning and city results were much closer...

As for the OP.... it is all anecdotal conjecture until we have actual data from the devs that fully describes the skewed Destro win percentage then all Destro players are doing is finding excuses and scapegoats to protect their over inflated win rate (your friend could legitemately be the most skilled player in the world, that doesn't mean he has mystical foresight into every instance that occurs every city).
You can't seperate balance from your argument because due to this balance Order has a less viable and squishier melee ball which can't do its job as well with lack of CC:
Melee SH vs melee SW, do I even need to go into detail, the advantage for city is glaring.
Much tankier Mara with way more utility and AOE CC Knockdown (that was also doing equal dmg to WL) over WL which can't damage Mara due to armor penetration shrug and no utility or CC without pet.
Choppa with GTDC with yet another CC order doesn't have which removes any defence while you're flying and totally messes up any positioning of melee while bringing healers and ranged into the blender versus a Slayer (the only good melee Order has in City) which does arguably do more damage from Rampage but is easier kited and avoided while affecting less enemies than GTDC .
As a result destro has at least one more class to pick for city in the current melee meta that order wouldn't (you can also stack mSH, you definitely don't want to stack more than one aSW), so the rest of those aSW and useless ranged SW have to go somewhere (they solo que) while a ranged SH can at least suck it up and go mSH and guarantee themselves a spot much easier than aSW would. This imbalance also leads Order to not want to play their decent melee in city (personally I rerolled my WL because it was so blatantly inferior to Mara / mSH and frustrating to play vs GTDC).
Then you have a Tank shortage on Order due to combined factors of looks, balance (BG >>>IB, BO >>> AM, KOTBS is good but doesn't do any dmg and thus lacks much needed pressure in City which the Chosen does just fine going 2H) and lack of melee DPS (due to above stated reasons). It's yet another logical fallacy to say it is only based on looks, most players have proven (in many PvP games) that as long as the character is strong or fun they will flock to it (even if not as aesthetically pleasing). Personally I think Iron Breaker looks cool and iconic, but sadly the class sucks for large WB scale play. 2H fun tank builds are meh for Order.

So now you are lacking tanks and melee DPS (and you have one less viable option in aSW) so how exactly are you supposed to organize (for melee heavy City meta) with these shortcomings brought upon mostly due to balance? Not to mention your only viable strat on Order is stack Slayers and BWs which at the top end skill level Destro has a counter to anyways (while also having much more viable and easy to pull off synergies at mid level play), that would surely play a major part in Destro win rate of like 70%+ for literal months.

Lastly and to illustrate how anectodal these arguments can be, someone in the long City Thread posted class distribution data they collected before a recent City (which destro won handidly once again) and it showed Order didn't have skewered ranged DPS representation (it was almost equal to Destro) but you hear the same rhetoric here like Order fielding 50% of City instances of like only Engi and BW/SW .... it's almost like Destro players think they have mystical foresight and their guesses equate actual data.

[Nosun]

Oh i forgot to mention i find it comical and typical that destro has then numbers advantage almost the all the time but also wins small scale in scenarios and city but u think destro characters are being overlooked and maybe need to be buffed. LITERAL LOL when i read that.

[farng84]

Class balance is irrelevant, you could give order a huge buff to all classes making them out perform destruction they would still lose to destruction if the destruction faction was more organised. Same goes if order were more organised than destruction.

Except when the SW got buffed and the Destro morale advantage removed, Order did start winning and city results were much closer...

As for the OP.... it is all anecdotal conjecture until we have actual data from the devs that fully describes the skewed Destro win percentage then all Destro players are doing is finding excuses and scapegoats to protect their over inflated win rate (your friend could legitemately be the most skilled player in the world, that doesn't mean he has mystical foresight into every instance that occurs every city).
You can't seperate balance from your argument because due to this balance Order has a less viable and squishier melee ball which can't do its job as well with lack of CC:
Melee SH vs melee SW, do I even need to go into detail, the advantage for city is glaring.
Much tankier Mara with way more utility and AOE CC Knockdown (that was also doing equal dmg to WL) over WL which can't damage Mara due to armor penetration shrug and no utility or CC without pet.
Choppa with GTDC with yet another CC order doesn't have which removes any defence while you're flying and totally messes up any positioning of melee while bringing healers and ranged into the blender versus a Slayer (the only good melee Order has in City) which does arguably do more damage from Rampage but is easier kited and avoided while affecting less enemies than GTDC .
As a result destro has at least one more class to pick for city in the current melee meta that order wouldn't (you can also stack mSH, you definitely don't want to stack more than one aSW), so the rest of those aSW and useless ranged SW have to go somewhere (they solo que) while a ranged SH can at least suck it up and go mSH and guarantee themselves a spot much easier than aSW would. This imbalance also leads Order to not want to play their decent melee in city (personally I rerolled my WL because it was so blatantly inferior to Mara / mSH and frustrating to play vs GTDC).
Then you have a Tank shortage on Order due to combined factors of looks, balance (BG >>>IB, BO >>> AM, KOTBS is good but doesn't do any dmg and thus lacks much needed pressure in City which the Chosen does just fine going 2H) and lack of melee DPS (due to above stated reasons). It's yet another logical fallacy to say it is only based on looks, most players have proven (in many PvP games) that as long as the character is strong or fun they will flock to it (even if not as aesthetically pleasing). Personally I think Iron Breaker looks cool and iconic, but sadly the class sucks for large WB scale play. 2H fun tank builds are meh for Order.

So now you are lacking tanks and melee DPS (and you have one less viable option in aSW) so how exactly are you supposed to organize (for melee heavy City meta) with these shortcomings brought upon mostly due to balance? Not to mention your only viable strat on Order is stack Slayers and BWs which at the top end skill level Destro has a counter to anyways (while also having much more viable and easy to pull off synergies at mid level play), that would surely play a major part in Destro win rate of like 70%+ for literal months.

Lastly and to illustrate how anectodal these arguments can be, someone in the long City Thread posted class distribution data they collected before a recent City (which destro won handidly once again) and it showed Order didn't have skewered ranged DPS representation (it was almost equal to Destro) but you hear the same rhetoric here like Order fielding 50% of City instances of like only Engi and BW/SW .... it's almost like Destro players think they have mystical foresight and their guesses equate actual data.

Agree about the lack of foresight, but one can base his post on direct observation. From cities I fought it appeared that order wb had abundance of rdps. Now not so much, but they usually lack variety and pick up only a few classes. Again this is only results of direct observation and no, I did not always win in both cases I illustrated.
Please don't compare mSH and mSW because they are not designed to be mirrored as someone pointed out recently.
Anyway, it all goes back to the point which was repeated by everybody: the imbalance mainly comes from people focusing on a few classes.
That will not be solved by debuffing mara or increasing the power of order classes, but reworking the balance of the builds.
Take an example I did read quite a few WL complaining their aoe is bad... It shouldn't. WL is designed as a strong single target and it should be stronger in that role but, aoe should be viable (if maybe a little inferior) option. In cases like oRvR or cities you might enjoy it better and deal comparable damage to single target WL (not talking about dmg per hit, talking about total damage output, otherwise it would be broken as hell).
Same goes for SW, sure it's mainly ranged but it should be viable as melee build (if not great since you chose an archer)...But in that case you would need to sacrifice most of your ranged power, otherwise you would be strong at range and strong at melee (not very fair).
I hope devs are trying to get there (by trial and error). If they could achieve this (even partially) most classes would be more appealing.
Those are just 2 examples (made on classes that regularly butcher me in pvp) but I bet WH, WE, etc. players would be able to identify at least a build or 2 that are crap but could be fun if it was viable for their career

[agemennon675]

Class balance is irrelevant, you could give order a huge buff to all classes making them out perform destruction they would still lose to destruction if the destruction faction was more organised. Same goes if order were more organised than destruction.

Except when the SW got buffed and the Destro morale advantage removed, Order did start winning and city results were much closer...

As for the OP.... it is all anecdotal conjecture until we have actual data from the devs that fully describes the skewed Destro win percentage then all Destro players are doing is finding excuses and scapegoats to protect their over inflated win rate (your friend could legitemately be the most skilled player in the world, that doesn't mean he has mystical foresight into every instance that occurs every city).
You can't seperate balance from your argument because due to this balance Order has a less viable and squishier melee ball which can't do its job as well with lack of CC:
Melee SH vs melee SW, do I even need to go into detail, the advantage for city is glaring.
Much tankier Mara with way more utility and AOE CC Knockdown (that was also doing equal dmg to WL) over WL which can't damage Mara due to armor penetration shrug and no utility or CC without pet.
Choppa with GTDC with yet another CC order doesn't have which removes any defence while you're flying and totally messes up any positioning of melee while bringing healers and ranged into the blender versus a Slayer (the only good melee Order has in City) which does arguably do more damage from Rampage but is easier kited and avoided while affecting less enemies than GTDC .
As a result destro has at least one more class to pick for city in the current melee meta that order wouldn't (you can also stack mSH, you definitely don't want to stack more than one aSW), so the rest of those aSW and useless ranged SW have to go somewhere (they solo que) while a ranged SH can at least suck it up and go mSH and guarantee themselves a spot much easier than aSW would. This imbalance also leads Order to not want to play their decent melee in city (personally I rerolled my WL because it was so blatantly inferior to Mara / mSH and frustrating to play vs GTDC).
Then you have a Tank shortage on Order due to combined factors of looks, balance (BG >>>IB, BO >>> AM, KOTBS is good but doesn't do any dmg and thus lacks much needed pressure in City which the Chosen does just fine going 2H) and lack of melee DPS (due to above stated reasons). It's yet another logical fallacy to say it is only based on looks, most players have proven (in many PvP games) that as long as the character is strong or fun they will flock to it (even if not as aesthetically pleasing). Personally I think Iron Breaker looks cool and iconic, but sadly the class sucks for large WB scale play. 2H fun tank builds are meh for Order.

So now you are lacking tanks and melee DPS (and you have one less viable option in aSW) so how exactly are you supposed to organize (for melee heavy City meta) with these shortcomings brought upon mostly due to balance? Not to mention your only viable strat on Order is stack Slayers and BWs which at the top end skill level Destro has a counter to anyways (while also having much more viable and easy to pull off synergies at mid level play), that would surely play a major part in Destro win rate of like 70%+ for literal months.

Lastly and to illustrate how anectodal these arguments can be, someone in the long City Thread posted class distribution data they collected before a recent City (which destro won handidly once again) and it showed Order didn't have skewered ranged DPS representation (it was almost equal to Destro) but you hear the same rhetoric here like Order fielding 50% of City instances of like only Engi and BW/SW .... it's almost like Destro players think they have mystical foresight and their guesses equate actual data.

Agree about the lack of foresight, but one can base his post on direct observation. From cities I fought it appeared that order wb had abundance of rdps. Now not so much, but they usually lack variety and pick up only a few classes. Again this is only results of direct observation and no, I did not always win in both cases I illustrated.
Please don't compare mSH and mSW because they are not designed to be mirrored as someone pointed out recently.
Anyway, it all goes back to the point which was repeated by everybody: the imbalance mainly comes from people focusing on a few classes.
That will not be solved by debuffing mara or increasing the power of order classes, but reworking the balance of the builds.
Take an example I did read quite a few WL complaining their aoe is bad... It shouldn't. WL is designed as a strong single target and it should be stronger in that role but, aoe should be viable (if maybe a little inferior) option. In cases like oRvR or cities you might enjoy it better and deal comparable damage to single target WL (not talking about dmg per hit, talking about total damage output, otherwise it would be broken as hell).
Same goes for SW, sure it's mainly ranged but it should be viable as melee build (if not great since you chose an archer)...But in that case you would need to sacrifice most of your ranged power, otherwise you would be strong at range and strong at melee (not very fair).
I hope devs are trying to get there (by trial and error). If they could achieve this (even partially) most classes would be more appealing.
Those are just 2 examples (made on classes that regularly butcher me in pvp) but I bet WH, WE, etc. players would be able to identify at least a build or 2 that are crap but could be fun if it was viable for their career

Dont compare mSH and mSW ? Why ? These 2 careers have the most similarity if you compare them and of all these 4 way mirror classes SH-SW-WL-Mara only ASW is left out without meaningful aoe as a mdps. Destro can have +1aoemds but order cannot ? and aoe is not only king in city its also extremely good in RvR+Most Scenarios as well, how is it fair and balanced while MSH-WL-Mara can have everything: Single target focus, good aoe, utility and ASW cannot because it has good single target ? Edit : If MSH and MSW isnt intended to be mirrored who is the mirror of the SW ?

[Grimfang]

Playing both realms and reading both chats there is one thing des are much better at. Whine.

[starness88]

Playing both realms and reading both chats there is one thing des are much better at. Whine.

Playing both realm too. Destro has reason too but not order. But order whined enough to get destro nerf.

[ActAppalled]

Agree about the lack of foresight, but one can base his post on direct observation. From cities I fought it appeared that order wb had abundance of rdps. Now not so much, but they usually lack variety and pick up only a few classes. Again this is only results of direct observation and no, I did not always win in both cases I illustrated.

I have leveled melee DPS strictly through scenarios on Destro and almost every instance felt like a lack of healers (or only DPS Shamans) while Order had like at least 4 actual healing classes, leading my direct observation to assume that Destro lacks healers and Order has an over abundance in leveling SCs... until I levelled on Order (where I'm playing now) and my team never had healers (or they were DPS AM) and Destro always had more actual healers. Do you see the problem with direct observation and how flawed it can be? Now consider City and the direct observation of a person that always ques in a 24 premade and some one that solo ques for City each time, those are going to be two starkly different direct observations.
Just for the record, I don't fully disagree or discount the organisational issues on Order, I just don't agree it's the sole reason for the skwed City win rates and as far as I'm concerned, balance (epecially with the melee ball) is skewed in Destro favour, to me it's as obvious as night and day.

Please don't compare mSH and mSW because they are not designed to be mirrored as someone pointed out recently.

Why not, SW and WL are jointly mirrored by Mara and SH, the point remains that one of those 4 classes is not exactly viable in city when compared with the other 3 (when looking at current melee city meta) and the unviable one happens to be on Order.

Anyway, it all goes back to the point which was repeated by everybody: the imbalance mainly comes from people focusing on a few classes.
That will not be solved by debuffing mara or increasing the power of order classes, but reworking the balance of the builds.

So we do agree it's a balance issue and not a strictly organisational issue then? Good.

[farng84]

Dont compare mSH and mSW ? Why ? These 2 careers have the most similarity if you compare them and of all these 4 way mirror classes SH-SW-WL-Mara only ASW is left out without meaningful aoe as a mdps. Destro can have +1aoemds but order cannot ? and aoe is not only king in city its also extremely good in RvR+Most Scenarios as well, how is it fair and balanced while MSH-WL-Mara can have everything: Single target focus, good aoe, utility and ASW cannot because it has good single target ? Edit : If MSH and MSW isnt intended to be mirrored who is the mirror of the SW ?

That is a question that should have been asked the original game developers when they made a 4 classes mix mirror...I cannot give you an exact answer. Why cant' mara jump around too and join the other three club? I have no clue on this either (and I don't care).
By the way what you are saying as a counter arguments are exactly the points I made.
1) More builds should be viable. I made the example of aoe WL build because I know about that, does SW have a melee aoe dps build? in case should be viable too (although you cannot expect to retain the same ranged single target power while your melee aoe dps gets powered up...it should always be a tradeoff. Otherwise we could just take a single class, give it best heal,rdps and aoe mdps (but ranged too why not) and lose all variety in favour of immortal juggernauts.
2) I said aoe is more important on RvR due to the amount of ppl, of course is useful in all situation but less for smaller scale battles. Not sure where aoe is king of city came from.
3)I do not think destro should have more viable options, I want to see class variety (and suitable builds variety) on both sides! for example, if WH works awesome on scenario it should have a place in city too (not 10 of them ofc)

Hope I clarified my points

[Akalukz]

you want to know the main reason there are little to no order mdps / tanks playing. GTDC. #changemymind

That's why there is a LARGE amount of RDPS... they don't fear the chop.