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Trickshaw
Posts: 17

I'm trying to genuinely understand.

Post#1 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:27 pm

Repeatedly over the last few nights I've seen Order completely slaughter in SC's and I don't rightly understand why.

I mean, I should rephrase that, I understand why: group composition. What I don't understand is *how* it keeps happening. These are the two circumstances I continuously encounter:

1.) The match starts with a population imbalance 6v4 (Order's Favor), 8v6 (Order's Favor), 8v12 (Order's Favor).
2.) Class imbalance, 4 Healers v 2 healers (Order's Favor), 3 Healers v 0 Healers (Order's Favor).

I literally just finished two back to back Mourkain SCs where A.) I was the only healer for Destro, B.) Order started and finished the SC with a population imbalance (12v10) *AND* they had 5 (F-I-V-E) healers. I don't understand how the system allows these matches to take place. Is this a criticism? Yes, of course. But I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I'm simply trying to understand.

I've leveled almost entirely through SCs and this is *not* an uncommon theme for destro in SCs. It's an extremely disheartening and commonplace situation to find one's self in and I'm just trying to understand.

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Kaelang
Bugtracker Manager
Posts: 902

Re: I'm trying to genuinely understand.

Post#2 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:13 pm

Normal scenarios do not have a group synergy / queue system in place to provide balanced teams - this was tried a while ago and the community feedback wasn't too great on it, based on higher queue times etc.

The Ranked Queue system does have a 2/2/2 6v6 system in place so that games do not start without equal teams.
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Xae
Posts: 11

Re: I'm trying to genuinely understand.

Post#3 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:15 pm

Trickshaw wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:27 pm
Repeatedly over the last few nights I've seen Order completely slaughter in SC's and I don't rightly understand why.

I mean, I should rephrase that, I understand why: group composition. What I don't understand is *how* it keeps happening. These are the two circumstances I continuously encounter:

1.) The match starts with a population imbalance 6v4 (Order's Favor), 8v6 (Order's Favor), 8v12 (Order's Favor).
2.) Class imbalance, 4 Healers v 2 healers (Order's Favor), 3 Healers v 0 Healers (Order's Favor).

I literally just finished two back to back Mourkain SCs where A.) I was the only healer for Destro, B.) Order started and finished the SC with a population imbalance (12v10) *AND* they had 5 (F-I-V-E) healers. I don't understand how the system allows these matches to take place. Is this a criticism? Yes, of course. But I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I'm simply trying to understand.

I've leveled almost entirely through SCs and this is *not* an uncommon theme for destro in SCs. It's an extremely disheartening and commonplace situation to find one's self in and I'm just trying to understand.
Its the same I've experienced. DPS Shamans seem to be a bit of a thing and while Destro may have 4 "healers" they ain't gunna cast a single heal between all of 'em.

I would really love to see the win rates for T1-T3, because I'll bet destro is pushing single digits.

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Ramlaen
Posts: 92

Re: I'm trying to genuinely understand.

Post#4 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:36 pm

I've leveled 4 characters to 40 since March and a lack of healers in t1-t3 compared to the other side has been the norm.

This was as Order though, ymmv.
Ramlaen, Longhaul, Wolfnrock, Grashop

tefnaht
Posts: 73

Re: I'm trying to genuinely understand.

Post#5 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:07 pm

Trickshaw wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:27 pm
Repeatedly over the last few nights I've seen Order completely slaughter in SC's and I don't rightly understand why.

I mean, I should rephrase that, I understand why: group composition. What I don't understand is *how* it keeps happening. These are the two circumstances I continuously encounter:

1.) The match starts with a population imbalance 6v4 (Order's Favor), 8v6 (Order's Favor), 8v12 (Order's Favor).
2.) Class imbalance, 4 Healers v 2 healers (Order's Favor), 3 Healers v 0 Healers (Order's Favor).

I literally just finished two back to back Mourkain SCs where A.) I was the only healer for Destro, B.) Order started and finished the SC with a population imbalance (12v10) *AND* they had 5 (F-I-V-E) healers. I don't understand how the system allows these matches to take place. Is this a criticism? Yes, of course. But I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I'm simply trying to understand.

I've leveled almost entirely through SCs and this is *not* an uncommon theme for destro in SCs. It's an extremely disheartening and commonplace situation to find one's self in and I'm just trying to understand.
Try to start xrealm in sc, it's feels like q system compare prem to pug, enter solo - prem in other side, enter prem - pug in other side. But, I know there no system at all, simple FIFO. Just take a break for 3-4min, ppl rotating in sc and u have high chances to get same setup with same ppl if u register few moments later after finish. It's like city snipes, w8 until all "glorious prems" enter to their pug mirrors and enter to your own pug mirror with own prem ^_^
Kaelang wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:13 pm
The Ranked Queue system does have a 2/2/2 6v6 system in place so that games do not start without equal teams.
Just simple - "do not start" ^_^, it's a super rare event.
Kaelang wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:13 pm
Normal scenarios do not have a group synergy / queue system in place to provide balanced teams - this was tried a while ago and the community feedback wasn't too great on it, based on higher queue times etc.
How long w8 time was on prime time\dead time? May be have some intellegence system based on active sc and ppl in q atm to deside start with 2\2\2 or simple FIFO? Or some basket rules, w8 until 12 ppl in q -> start constructing 2\2\2 -> success? (*)start match and try to fill it up with reservation slots(1 tank\dd\healer for worst case scenario 4\1\1) -> fail? start timer(good to have algorithm selecting time from predefined range) -> success? move to (*) -> fail? start constructing 4\1\1 -> success? move to (*) -> fail? start another timer with another range -> success? move to (*) -> fail? start with all ppl in q. Collect stats about avg w8 time, started sc, entered into q with tier and specs marks, leaved q, analyze it add more rules and coef's. With right collecting metrics and target metrics, with bunch optional and guaranteed rules - can construct dnn algorithm witch will balancing teams with low cost for avg w8 time and improve play experience for gamers when its possible. In internet exists some open source code projects - can help with realisation...

storm
Posts: 49

Re: I'm trying to genuinely understand.

Post#6 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:11 am

The problem does not fall on the system from my understanding, but the people joining. Pressing the que button should have steeper consequences/ longer lock outs and 1 min to que. I think what's happening is people abandon the que, that's why game starts uneven. The system searches to try and fill que but that takes time and you get out numbered games.

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kirraha
Posts: 152

Re: I'm trying to genuinely understand.

Post#7 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:36 am

Trickshaw wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:27 pm
Repeatedly over the last few nights I've seen Order completely slaughter in SC's and I don't rightly understand why.

I mean, I should rephrase that, I understand why: group composition. What I don't understand is *how* it keeps happening. These are the two circumstances I continuously encounter:

1.) The match starts with a population imbalance 6v4 (Order's Favor), 8v6 (Order's Favor), 8v12 (Order's Favor).
2.) Class imbalance, 4 Healers v 2 healers (Order's Favor), 3 Healers v 0 Healers (Order's Favor).

I literally just finished two back to back Mourkain SCs where A.) I was the only healer for Destro, B.) Order started and finished the SC with a population imbalance (12v10) *AND* they had 5 (F-I-V-E) healers. I don't understand how the system allows these matches to take place. Is this a criticism? Yes, of course. But I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I'm simply trying to understand.

I've leveled almost entirely through SCs and this is *not* an uncommon theme for destro in SCs. It's an extremely disheartening and commonplace situation to find one's self in and I'm just trying to understand.
Destro has healers in SCS, issue is lots wanna play dps "dps" and that make them do **** damage and nonexisting healing.

I see same issue on order side too. Ppl have theur own ideas and **** their team over.

Its of allowed to be a shitty dps healer but it will keep you loosing and making ppl not like you.

anarchypark
Posts: 1642

Re: I'm trying to genuinely understand.

Post#8 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:25 pm

@OP
That's exactly my experience on order side.
see the pattern? solo queue.

it would be good if system makes 2-2-2 from solo pool.
but are you sure you'll be in 2-2-2 or to be in leftovers.
so it's random again.

get a grp and avoid random.
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SC summary - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20415
( last update : 2020.06.09)

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Valarion
Posts: 295

Re: I'm trying to genuinely understand.

Post#9 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:27 pm

I've noticed these problems surface in waves.

They are typical more frequently seen during peak rvr times when people are caught in combat and cant get out or when premades are rolling everyone. The best advice i can give you is form a group, only join pug scs or simply take a break. As strange as it seems, taking a break helps. I think because the norm is for there to be a tendency towards better group comps at most times.

Lately, Ive had a different problem: Im frequently added to an already ongoing sc, very late into the match and sometimes just before the sc complete. This entire weekend I almost never entered a sc at the start. I started over 18 straight scs very late.
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Valarion
Posts: 295

Re: I'm trying to genuinely understand.

Post#10 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:31 pm

Kaelang wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:13 pm
Normal scenarios do not have a group synergy / queue system in place to provide balanced teams - this was tried a while ago and the community feedback wasn't too great on it, based on higher queue times etc.

The Ranked Queue system does have a 2/2/2 6v6 system in place so that games do not start without equal teams.
Im surprised. Is there truly no group synergy system in place what so ever? Not even an initial quick attempt?

I ask because your typical unranked sc is surprisingly more balanced than I would expect from complete and total 100% randomness. Perhaps this is because on the Destro side at least the classes are more evenly distributed.
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40s: WP/Dok AM/Shaman RP/Zeal Knight/Chosen SM/BO BW/Sorc WL & Eng

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