Ramlaen wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:54 pm
M0rw47h wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:16 pm
Alfa1986 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:46 pm
of course the community knows why. and many reasons are already indicated in this thread. but for some reason almost no one talks about the main issue, and this is not a balance. if the main issue was in the balance, then the order would lose everywhere: both in general scenarios, and orvr. but the order only loses in cities. I think the main problem is the broken system of selection and filling of the instance. everyone laughed about that there were 20 tanks on order side in one instance. but just what did the players decide that they will play like this? (hey look at this, there is already a tank, a tank, a tank in this instance, and for a change I also will be a tank). players cannot choose in which instance and with which classes they will play on team. what are we talking about, how can players be blamed for this? Of course, there are other factors, probably the balance too, and the low popularity of the order side, and low organization, etc.etc,etc.
They can be blamed for not organizing themselves via /5.
To reiterate previous posts, the reason Destro is more organized in cities is not because their puggers do not exist but that because of the population difference more of Order's puggers get in fill city instances.
There is a reason large numbers of Destro players never make it in.
Yep, this is the key point here. Regardless, the solution is the same, Order won't be fighting pugs, so if they pug they need to accept that its likely a loss. Order lacks a proportionally equal number of organized groups to Destro, and the only way to rectify this (without changing how the city works on a fundamental level), is to either get more organized WBs queuing on Order (so they match the effort of the groups they are fighting), and/or reduce the number of destro organized wbs and get more destro pugs.
Now, I want to mention my own perspective of what's happening here and the mini-ecosystem that has developed.
1. You have some really good Order groups, and some really good Destro groups. These groups have great matches when they fight each other, and fun fights, that can go either way and either Order/Destro can win. When these groups queue, they WANT to fight the other similarly organized top-tier groups.
2. You have the "2nd tier" of Order/Destro groups, who aren't the best but do very well in cities versus everyone but the best (I personally put myself in this category, FYI). These groups only tend to lose to the top-tier groups on average. However, these groups are trying to compete with the top-tier so they try to optimize and organize to do that (but don't always manage to pull it off).
So at this point, we have a mini ecosystem of the top groups, and the "not top but not bad" groups who are trying to optimize to beat those top groups.
What happens now is the issue: You then have other groups of people who are basically not playing the same mini/meta-game here.
3. You now have your "middle tier" of organized groups. These guys are just trying to get into the city, have a good time with their friends, and hopefully pull out some wins. They aren't neccessarily putting the time/effort to beat the top/tryhards, and they get results that replicate this. They aren't trying to tryhard, but they can sometimes win against top/near top groups. They can also lose to pugs/bad groups, because of the sheer variability in this bracket.
4. Under this you have your "low tier" of organized groups, which are effectively "pugs that organized 5-10 minutes before the city", these groups are just trying to get crests usually, with minimal effort, and will tend to lose to the majority of other organized groups.
5. Lastly you have pure "walk in the door solo" pugs. Not really sure why they do this, but probably "a chance to get crests with minimal effort or planning involved".
So, you really have two camps of people playing cities. You have people playing to win (aka the winners and those who are trying to compete with them), and you have people playing to get currency (the middle tier groups to PUGs). What happens is: This causes issue in player fun where there are large mismatches between the types of groups that end up playing city against each other.
For example:
1. When top tier groups fight anyone but other top tier/tryhards, they just roll them over immediately. It's not fun for anyone, for the people who are stomping it's boring, and for the middle/low/pugs - it's frustratingly unfun to be farmed for over an hour and barely get a kill/do anything.
2. When PuG groups fight anyone besides low-tier organized groups, they also have an awful time. Even the mid-tier groups will just roll them over immediately, again, not fun for the people stomping or doing the stomp.
So what does this mean in practice? Well with the way everything works out and the populations and the number of organized WBs. Effectively you have twice as many organized destro WBs who are looking to fight organized Order WBs, but only about half of them (made this up, its just a guess), will end up fighting their desired WBs. Let's take an example:
Lets say we have 20 city instances, so 20 groups of order/destro:
If there are 2 top order groups on, theres probably 3-4 destro.
If there are 2 -next tier order groups on, theres probably 3-4 destro in that same tier.
If there are 4 mid-tier order groups on, there's probably 6-8 destro in that same tier.
Etc....
In effect, destro is queueing too many organized groups to try and fight the top groups of order, but there isn't enough of these top order groups to go around (for population reasons), so what happens is a lot of those destro wbs end up getting placed versus groups that they vastly outgear/skill/experience, and then everyone has a bad time.
From my own anecdotal evidence: We don't know who we are going to get going into a city. We try to set up the best we can to win "if" we get a good order group to fight, but we can't guarantee that. Many times instead of getting one of the good groups, we get a pug or a low-tier barely organized group and the city goes 300-0 or something, and that's not what we want either. However, the times that we don't optimize and then try to run with 6 or 12 and just have a casual city, then we get matched up against the 24man top wbs of order and get crushed. So it's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't moment". There's a few really good order groups that has inspired destro to be better and to try and beat them (Bombling and Spell, you two are personally responsible for some of this), and we've attempted to do so. However, the other players on your realm are not putting in that same level of effort that we put it to try and fight you.
So effectively, you have a much wider skill gap on order than you do on Destro because of how the ecosystem has worked out. Order has some absolutely fantastic players, guilds, and city wbs. However they don't have enough of them. The top tier order WBs have inspired many destro groups to get organized, get their **** together, and put in the effort to try and beat them. For some reason, fighting these Destro WBs is not inspiring the lower-tier of organized order to do the same, and I'm not sure why.