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City Winner History?

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Ramlaen
Posts: 201

Re: City Winner History?

Post#411 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:54 pm

M0rw47h wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:16 pm
Alfa1986 wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:46 pm of course the community knows why. and many reasons are already indicated in this thread. but for some reason almost no one talks about the main issue, and this is not a balance. if the main issue was in the balance, then the order would lose everywhere: both in general scenarios, and orvr. but the order only loses in cities. I think the main problem is the broken system of selection and filling of the instance. everyone laughed about that there were 20 tanks on order side in one instance. but just what did the players decide that they will play like this? (hey look at this, there is already a tank, a tank, a tank in this instance, and for a change I also will be a tank). players cannot choose in which instance and with which classes they will play on team. what are we talking about, how can players be blamed for this? Of course, there are other factors, probably the balance too, and the low popularity of the order side, and low organization, etc.etc,etc.
They can be blamed for not organizing themselves via /5.
To reiterate previous posts, the reason Destro is more organized in cities is not because their puggers do not exist but that because of the population difference more of Order's puggers get in fill city instances.

There is a reason large numbers of Destro players never make it in.
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M0rw47h
Posts: 898

Re: City Winner History?

Post#412 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:24 pm

Ramlaen wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:54 pm
M0rw47h wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:16 pm
Alfa1986 wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:46 pm of course the community knows why. and many reasons are already indicated in this thread. but for some reason almost no one talks about the main issue, and this is not a balance. if the main issue was in the balance, then the order would lose everywhere: both in general scenarios, and orvr. but the order only loses in cities. I think the main problem is the broken system of selection and filling of the instance. everyone laughed about that there were 20 tanks on order side in one instance. but just what did the players decide that they will play like this? (hey look at this, there is already a tank, a tank, a tank in this instance, and for a change I also will be a tank). players cannot choose in which instance and with which classes they will play on team. what are we talking about, how can players be blamed for this? Of course, there are other factors, probably the balance too, and the low popularity of the order side, and low organization, etc.etc,etc.
They can be blamed for not organizing themselves via /5.
To reiterate previous posts, the reason Destro is more organized in cities is not because their puggers do not exist but that because of the population difference more of Order's puggers get in fill city instances.

There is a reason large numbers of Destro players never make it in.
Not really. I'd say far less people on order is looking for CS WB or 12man via /5 than on destro (% wise). From my own experience.

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Alfa1986
Posts: 542

Re: City Winner History?

Post#413 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:29 pm

and here another factor comes into play about which Bombling already wrote, and why he no longer organizes warband for city. you cannot plan for a city , the city can happen in an hour, two, three, eight or maybe 12 hours. so wach has 5-10 minutes to join or organize a warband, that is not enough. and then you have a choice either to try to join the warband and have all chance not be in time, as a result to miss the city, or queue up solo with an almost 100% chance that you get into the instance and receive your crests.

Edit
I also forgot to point out that there are unwanted classes that no one will take into the warband, even at a high rr level, such as WH, dps AM and others.
Last edited by Alfa1986 on Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.
15th orks on a dead elf's chest
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Foofmonger
Posts: 524

Re: City Winner History?

Post#414 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:33 pm

Ramlaen wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:54 pm
M0rw47h wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:16 pm
Alfa1986 wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:46 pm of course the community knows why. and many reasons are already indicated in this thread. but for some reason almost no one talks about the main issue, and this is not a balance. if the main issue was in the balance, then the order would lose everywhere: both in general scenarios, and orvr. but the order only loses in cities. I think the main problem is the broken system of selection and filling of the instance. everyone laughed about that there were 20 tanks on order side in one instance. but just what did the players decide that they will play like this? (hey look at this, there is already a tank, a tank, a tank in this instance, and for a change I also will be a tank). players cannot choose in which instance and with which classes they will play on team. what are we talking about, how can players be blamed for this? Of course, there are other factors, probably the balance too, and the low popularity of the order side, and low organization, etc.etc,etc.
They can be blamed for not organizing themselves via /5.
To reiterate previous posts, the reason Destro is more organized in cities is not because their puggers do not exist but that because of the population difference more of Order's puggers get in fill city instances.

There is a reason large numbers of Destro players never make it in.
Yep, this is the key point here. Regardless, the solution is the same, Order won't be fighting pugs, so if they pug they need to accept that its likely a loss. Order lacks a proportionally equal number of organized groups to Destro, and the only way to rectify this (without changing how the city works on a fundamental level), is to either get more organized WBs queuing on Order (so they match the effort of the groups they are fighting), and/or reduce the number of destro organized wbs and get more destro pugs.

Now, I want to mention my own perspective of what's happening here and the mini-ecosystem that has developed.

1. You have some really good Order groups, and some really good Destro groups. These groups have great matches when they fight each other, and fun fights, that can go either way and either Order/Destro can win. When these groups queue, they WANT to fight the other similarly organized top-tier groups.
2. You have the "2nd tier" of Order/Destro groups, who aren't the best but do very well in cities versus everyone but the best (I personally put myself in this category, FYI). These groups only tend to lose to the top-tier groups on average. However, these groups are trying to compete with the top-tier so they try to optimize and organize to do that (but don't always manage to pull it off).

So at this point, we have a mini ecosystem of the top groups, and the "not top but not bad" groups who are trying to optimize to beat those top groups.

What happens now is the issue: You then have other groups of people who are basically not playing the same mini/meta-game here.

3. You now have your "middle tier" of organized groups. These guys are just trying to get into the city, have a good time with their friends, and hopefully pull out some wins. They aren't neccessarily putting the time/effort to beat the top/tryhards, and they get results that replicate this. They aren't trying to tryhard, but they can sometimes win against top/near top groups. They can also lose to pugs/bad groups, because of the sheer variability in this bracket.

4. Under this you have your "low tier" of organized groups, which are effectively "pugs that organized 5-10 minutes before the city", these groups are just trying to get crests usually, with minimal effort, and will tend to lose to the majority of other organized groups.

5. Lastly you have pure "walk in the door solo" pugs. Not really sure why they do this, but probably "a chance to get crests with minimal effort or planning involved".

So, you really have two camps of people playing cities. You have people playing to win (aka the winners and those who are trying to compete with them), and you have people playing to get currency (the middle tier groups to PUGs). What happens is: This causes issue in player fun where there are large mismatches between the types of groups that end up playing city against each other.

For example:

1. When top tier groups fight anyone but other top tier/tryhards, they just roll them over immediately. It's not fun for anyone, for the people who are stomping it's boring, and for the middle/low/pugs - it's frustratingly unfun to be farmed for over an hour and barely get a kill/do anything.
2. When PuG groups fight anyone besides low-tier organized groups, they also have an awful time. Even the mid-tier groups will just roll them over immediately, again, not fun for the people stomping or doing the stomp.

So what does this mean in practice? Well with the way everything works out and the populations and the number of organized WBs. Effectively you have twice as many organized destro WBs who are looking to fight organized Order WBs, but only about half of them (made this up, its just a guess), will end up fighting their desired WBs. Let's take an example:

Lets say we have 20 city instances, so 20 groups of order/destro:

If there are 2 top order groups on, theres probably 3-4 destro.
If there are 2 -next tier order groups on, theres probably 3-4 destro in that same tier.
If there are 4 mid-tier order groups on, there's probably 6-8 destro in that same tier.
Etc....

In effect, destro is queueing too many organized groups to try and fight the top groups of order, but there isn't enough of these top order groups to go around (for population reasons), so what happens is a lot of those destro wbs end up getting placed versus groups that they vastly outgear/skill/experience, and then everyone has a bad time.

From my own anecdotal evidence: We don't know who we are going to get going into a city. We try to set up the best we can to win "if" we get a good order group to fight, but we can't guarantee that. Many times instead of getting one of the good groups, we get a pug or a low-tier barely organized group and the city goes 300-0 or something, and that's not what we want either. However, the times that we don't optimize and then try to run with 6 or 12 and just have a casual city, then we get matched up against the 24man top wbs of order and get crushed. So it's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't moment". There's a few really good order groups that has inspired destro to be better and to try and beat them (Bombling and Spell, you two are personally responsible for some of this), and we've attempted to do so. However, the other players on your realm are not putting in that same level of effort that we put it to try and fight you.

So effectively, you have a much wider skill gap on order than you do on Destro because of how the ecosystem has worked out. Order has some absolutely fantastic players, guilds, and city wbs. However they don't have enough of them. The top tier order WBs have inspired many destro groups to get organized, get their **** together, and put in the effort to try and beat them. For some reason, fighting these Destro WBs is not inspiring the lower-tier of organized order to do the same, and I'm not sure why.

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Alfa1986
Posts: 542

Re: City Winner History?

Post#415 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:04 pm

Foofmonger wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:33 pm
Ramlaen wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:54 pm
M0rw47h wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:16 pm

They can be blamed for not organizing themselves via /5.
To reiterate previous posts, the reason Destro is more organized in cities is not because their puggers do not exist but that because of the population difference more of Order's puggers get in fill city instances.

There is a reason large numbers of Destro players never make it in.
Yep, this is the key point here. Regardless, the solution is the same, Order won't be fighting pugs, so if they pug they need to accept that its likely a loss. Order lacks a proportionally equal number of organized groups to Destro, and the only way to rectify this (without changing how the city works on a fundamental level), is to either get more organized WBs queuing on Order (so they match the effort of the groups they are fighting), and/or reduce the number of destro organized wbs and get more destro pugs.

Now, I want to mention my own perspective of what's happening here and the mini-ecosystem that has developed.

1. You have some really good Order groups, and some really good Destro groups. These groups have great matches when they fight each other, and fun fights, that can go either way and either Order/Destro can win. When these groups queue, they WANT to fight the other similarly organized top-tier groups.
2. You have the "2nd tier" of Order/Destro groups, who aren't the best but do very well in cities versus everyone but the best (I personally put myself in this category, FYI). These groups only tend to lose to the top-tier groups on average. However, these groups are trying to compete with the top-tier so they try to optimize and organize to do that (but don't always manage to pull it off).

So at this point, we have a mini ecosystem of the top groups, and the "not top but not bad" groups who are trying to optimize to beat those top groups.

What happens now is the issue: You then have other groups of people who are basically not playing the same mini/meta-game here.

3. You now have your "middle tier" of organized groups. These guys are just trying to get into the city, have a good time with their friends, and hopefully pull out some wins. They aren't neccessarily putting the time/effort to beat the top/tryhards, and they get results that replicate this. They aren't trying to tryhard, but they can sometimes win against top/near top groups. They can also lose to pugs/bad groups, because of the sheer variability in this bracket.

4. Under this you have your "low tier" of organized groups, which are effectively "pugs that organized 5-10 minutes before the city", these groups are just trying to get crests usually, with minimal effort, and will tend to lose to the majority of other organized groups.

5. Lastly you have pure "walk in the door solo" pugs. Not really sure why they do this, but probably "a chance to get crests with minimal effort or planning involved".

So, you really have two camps of people playing cities. You have people playing to win (aka the winners and those who are trying to compete with them), and you have people playing to get currency (the middle tier groups to PUGs). What happens is: This causes issue in player fun where there are large mismatches between the types of groups that end up playing city against each other.

For example:

1. When top tier groups fight anyone but other top tier/tryhards, they just roll them over immediately. It's not fun for anyone, for the people who are stomping it's boring, and for the middle/low/pugs - it's frustratingly unfun to be farmed for over an hour and barely get a kill/do anything.
2. When PuG groups fight anyone besides low-tier organized groups, they also have an awful time. Even the mid-tier groups will just roll them over immediately, again, not fun for the people stomping or doing the stomp.

So what does this mean in practice? Well with the way everything works out and the populations and the number of organized WBs. Effectively you have twice as many organized destro WBs who are looking to fight organized Order WBs, but only about half of them (made this up, its just a guess), will end up fighting their desired WBs. Let's take an example:

Lets say we have 20 city instances, so 20 groups of order/destro:

If there are 2 top order groups on, theres probably 3-4 destro.
If there are 2 -next tier order groups on, theres probably 3-4 destro in that same tier.
If there are 4 mid-tier order groups on, there's probably 6-8 destro in that same tier.
Etc....

In effect, destro is queueing too many organized groups to try and fight the top groups of order, but there isn't enough of these top order groups to go around (for population reasons), so what happens is a lot of those destro wbs end up getting placed versus groups that they vastly outgear/skill/experience, and then everyone has a bad time.

From my own anecdotal evidence: We don't know who we are going to get going into a city. We try to set up the best we can to win "if" we get a good order group to fight, but we can't guarantee that. Many times instead of getting one of the good groups, we get a pug or a low-tier barely organized group and the city goes 300-0 or something, and that's not what we want either. However, the times that we don't optimize and then try to run with 6 or 12 and just have a casual city, then we get matched up against the 24man top wbs of order and get crushed. So it's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't moment". There's a few really good order groups that has inspired destro to be better and to try and beat them (Bombling and Spell, you two are personally responsible for some of this), and we've attempted to do so. However, the other players on your realm are not putting in that same level of effort that we put it to try and fight you.

So effectively, you have a much wider skill gap on order than you do on Destro because of how the ecosystem has worked out. Order has some absolutely fantastic players, guilds, and city wbs. However they don't have enough of them. The top tier order WBs have inspired many destro groups to get organized, get their **** together, and put in the effort to try and beat them. For some reason, fighting these Destro WBs is not inspiring the lower-tier of organized order to do the same, and I'm not sure why.
in general, the breakdown into groups you did right, but only in reality it is much more difficult because of many unknowns changing every second. you do not take into account the main thing is the time of online people and the time when the city happens. If 2-3 people are absent, the "top" group can easily turn into the "middle" group, and the "middle" group can become the "top" with a full line-up at this time of day. a pug who get in the door solo, with the correct scenario filling 2 * 2 * 2, can compete with the average const group, at the same time, a hastily organized warband with 2 healers can be rolf stomped puggers getting in the door solo, who randomly received wb 2 * 2 * 2.
15th orks on a dead elf's chest
yo ho ho and a bottle of rum

ActAppalled
Posts: 20

Re: City Winner History?

Post#416 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:11 pm

I don't think it is purely an organisational issue for Order, it would really help if we had data of city team compositions and their respective win rates as that would easily confirm or deny that theory.

Personally I have only ever qued in 8/8/8 full WB groups as part of my Order guild alliance and my win rate is under 50% (If we take a WH/SW/Engi/AM or IB it is only one). I have two Order classes that have 5/8 Sov and 3/8 Sov respectively, so have done my fair share of city.
I'm usually either top or near the top of the meters in my respective classes and don't believe it's specifically me being the cause of the losses (but I do have bad days just like everyone else).
The minimum for said alliance WBs is Vanq but I would say about 50% of the players we get on a given day are usually better geared (quite a number in full Sov too). Yet we still lose, a lot, we never lose to unorganised Destro but a big majority of the WB's we verse have at least some numbers of PnP, FMJ, LOB, TUP, Capulet etc.. and usually it's enough.
It's not a static group due to the nature and timing of cities so it's not like we constantly field the same people either, I think it's quite a reach in logic to assume our whole big Alliance is just full of bad players. Personally I started on Destro and have a Magus that got to 3-4 Sov pieces (can't remember exactly) and had a higher win rate just from joining literally any /5 group advertising looking for DPS that would take me (as on Destro you can't be too picky as a Magus and you had to be sure you qued the second City instances opened).
One of the best BWs on the server in BiS gear (that has been in top guilds during cities) also claims to have a win percent under 50%.

This all leads me to believe there is definitely at least some class balance issues in city between the two factions. Simplfied, it is the better CC/AOE Cleave/Interrupts/Tankiness of the Destro melee train coupled with better damage and utility on Destro tanks (BG having better/actual AOE and a spammable healing debuff compared to IB, BO having a better CD decreaser and better utility than SM and Chosen having better offence at no cost to their defence over KOTBS, just to name a few) plus having more viable options in mSH over aSW and Shaman being a better healer/kiter than AM, it all adds up and compounds.
I don't see the supposed healing advantage Order has as the healing numbers on any City screenshot I look at indicate no significant difference (in fact it feels like DoKs somehow heal more than WP a lot of the time but that could be due to many factors).
For the record there is also a class distribution issue and telling Order to just organise better won't solve anything, as you can only spread the limited tank players that order has access to, so far.
Destro is guilty of bad organsiation and bad groups too, it's just less punishing on that side unless you get extremes like this screenshot (but I'm adding it to illustrate a point):
https://imgur.com/NmzMUOB

slattie
Posts: 31

Re: City Winner History?

Post#417 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:12 pm

i play order and have played lots of cities with sov things and my opinion is that you know, i'm sad about the state of the game. i would like to see it improve.

sometimes an analogy can make sense. most everyone likes baked treats, just like most everyone here likes ror. if you bake, you know ratio is important for a tasty baked treat. there's too much salt and heat right now, which makes our reckoning cookie burnt and taste like ****!!!! i think with less heat and less salt we can come to an agreement as a community on how to improve our server based on the things we can control. @spellbound has a great point about observing the community and not getting involved as a gm. less stirring from @wargrimnir to over mix our biscuits would make for fluffy biscuits! not tacky, hard, disgusting biscuits. if exclusivity in game direction decision making applies to the ror team, then it seems fair to ask that you leave the ror community alone to discuss what they feel about the game.

just like we need you guys to play ror, you guys need players to want to play ror. or i'm wrong and you don't need us. either way i'm still sad about the state of the game.

Foofmonger
Posts: 524

Re: City Winner History?

Post#418 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:13 pm

Alfa you are absolutely right that there's is in-group variability throughout different times. Not denying that this is a factor at all, I just felt my post was long enough as-is without going into yet another facet of this, but I agree with you.

When I say "top group" I don' t mean "the same top group every city" I mean more of "the top group of that city".

But yes, there's a huge amount of variability, in "who" those groups are and "whom" they contain. You may be in a "top group" one city, and a "/5 warband" the next one, depending on what happens when you log on (for instance, your guild/alliance wb is full so you have to pug, or you were 5 minutes late and join a different guild in your alliance, etc..).

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Foofmonger
Posts: 524

Re: City Winner History?

Post#419 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:15 pm

ActAppalled wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:11 pm I don't think it is purely an organisational issue for Order, it would really help if we had data of city team compositions and their respective win rates as that would easily confirm or deny that theory.

Personally I have only ever qued in 8/8/8 full WB groups as part of my Order guild alliance and my win rate is under 50% (If we take a WH/SW/Engi/AM or IB it is only one). I have two Order classes that have 5/8 Sov and 3/8 Sov respectively, so have done my fair share of city.
I'm usually either top or near the top of the meters in my respective classes and don't believe it's specifically me being the cause of the losses (but I do have bad days just like everyone else).
The minimum for said alliance WBs is Vanq but I would say about 50% of the players we get on a given day are usually better geared (quite a number in full Sov too). Yet we still lose, a lot, we never lose to unorganised Destro but a big majority of the WB's we verse have at least some numbers of PnP, FMJ, LOB, TUP, Capulet etc.. and usually it's enough.
It's not a static group due to the nature and timing of cities so it's not like we constantly field the same people either, I think it's quite a reach in logic to assume our whole big Alliance is just full of bad players. Personally I started on Destro and have a Magus that got to 3-4 Sov pieces (can't remember exactly) and had a higher win rate just from joining literally any /5 group advertising looking for DPS that would take me (as on Destro you can't be too picky as a Magus and you had to be sure you qued the second City instances opened).
One of the best BWs on the server in BiS gear (that has been in top guilds during cities) also claims to have a win percent under 50%.

This all leads me to believe there is definitely at least some class balance issues in city between the two factions. Simplfied, it is the better CC/AOE Cleave/Interrupts/Tankiness of the Destro melee train coupled with better damage and utility on Destro tanks (BG having better/actual AOE and a spammable healing debuff compared to IB, BO having a better CD decreaser and better utility than SM and Chosen having better offence at no cost to their defence over KOTBS, just to name a few) plus having more viable options in mSH over aSW and Shaman being a better healer/kiter than AM, it all adds up and compounds.
I don't see the supposed healing advantage Order has as the healing numbers on any City screenshot I look at indicate no significant difference (in fact it feels like DoKs somehow heal more than WP a lot of the time but that could be due to many factors).
For the record there is also a class distribution issue and telling Order to just organise better won't solve anything, as you can only spread the limited tank players that order has access to, so far.
Destro is guilty of bad organsiation and bad groups too, it's just less punishing on that side unless you get extremes like this screenshot (but I'm adding it to illustrate a point):
https://imgur.com/NmzMUOB
I think this is a good and fair post from a perspective that's not my own, so good take. There certainly are potential balance issues at hand and it's certainly not 100% an organizational issue, again, I think the balance and the organizational issues compound one another and make each other worse to your point.

Who are you btw in game? I'm going to assume I've faced you in a variety of cities so I'd like to see who you are from perspective of the fights we've had so I can add my own color to your wins/losses.

M0rw47h
Posts: 898

Re: City Winner History?

Post#420 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:19 pm

Foofmonger wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:33 pm

Yep, this is the key point here. Regardless, the solution is the same, Order won't be fighting pugs (...)
More than half of games with my ex-guild was against PUGs, I'd even say that 20-30% games were against ~20 DPS soloQ. Kinda boring if you ask me.

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