City Winner History?

[Ramlaen]

+20% outgoing ED is the best healer tactic in game (outside of grp clns)
+15% incoming FM kniggit is order only
+5% kniggy crits from DT is order only
+10% IB crits from AF order only (not as common)
+8% SW crits from LS (quite rare)

0.25s RP reduced cast time is (RP, AM) .... mirrored with absorb

But lets not use facts

ED is not the best healer tactic or even the best WP/DoK tactic. It's good, especially at high rank and if you have high survivability vs noob players, but it comes with its costs.

The Knight tactic is nothing special. Good, yes, but it's not exceptional for a tactic slot especially considering Stay Focused is nerfed and basically trash.

As for IB, the BG has Crush the Weak. Not sure if it was changed to -percentage point from -%, close enough. You're not likely to find an IB/Knight/Shadow Warrior/RP setup though.

Crimson Death

Also a RP running Master Rune of Speed is gimping both his healing and utility. There is a reason why you never see it.

[Manatikik]

the difference is that WP can (and will) slot ED+discipline and that means a real difference.

Wat.

What he is saying is:

The WP can slot both ED (which gives 20% healing bonus) and Discipline (160 willpower), giving the WP 25%-31% increased healing (more or less).
The DoK can slot Discipline, giviing them 5-11% increased healing.

Whether or not WPs do slot ED/Discipline, is another matter (and/or whether DOKs slot Discipline).

That being said, acting like 5%-11% healing increases and 20% healing increases "are the same thing", is a delusional take at best. Yes, and also 5% damage is the same as 20% damage! Math!!!!!

Just like to point out that it’s a lot less than 20% healing overall due to its uptime and it will vary depending on the comp. Since a lot of destro comps will only bring one or two rdps so the chance to disrupt and proc is pretty low (whereas their chance to parry is veeeery low; even if you spec into it). Not to mention how Chosen aura counters that and a little more than ED + DT but doesn’t let you cover a different Aura (this game at the base does have some excellent balancing principles that are hard to see if you don’t play a lot of toons or delve into every class’s kit). That being said, ED is still an amazing tactic 100%; just not as cut and dry as +20% healing all the time.

[Foofmonger]

Wat.

What he is saying is:

The WP can slot both ED (which gives 20% healing bonus) and Discipline (160 willpower), giving the WP 25%-31% increased healing (more or less).
The DoK can slot Discipline, giviing them 5-11% increased healing.

Whether or not WPs do slot ED/Discipline, is another matter (and/or whether DOKs slot Discipline).

That being said, acting like 5%-11% healing increases and 20% healing increases "are the same thing", is a delusional take at best. Yes, and also 5% damage is the same as 20% damage! Math!!!!!

Just like to point out that it’s a lot less than 20% healing overall due to its uptime and it will vary depending on the comp. Since a lot of destro comps will only bring one or two rdps so the chance to disrupt and proc is pretty low (whereas their chance to parry is veeeery low; even if you spec into it). Not to mention how Chosen aura counters that and a little more than ED + DT but doesn’t let you cover a different Aura (this game at the base does have some excellent balancing principles that are hard to see if you don’t play a lot of toons or delve into every class’s kit). That being said, ED is still an amazing tactic 100%; just not as cut and dry as +20% healing all the time.

Absolutely true. ED could in some situations, totally end up being a dead tactic. In the situations where you can guarantee lots of procs, it's amazing. Where you can't, it's not. I love the tactic and the design, and I'm not personally complaining about it. My initial point in bringing this up was talking about the chosen heal debuff tactic and how its balance versus ED (and other various things), so yea totally agree. I was trying to point out to the people earlier in this thread that the conception of balance between the Chosen Heal Debuff and the Knight FM aura was more complex than just looking at these two ability in a vacuum.

[teiloh]

Spoiler:

its totally false that all the tactics you have to chose have the same weight, and its totally false that dok have any tactic available to increase +20% healing => FALSEEEEEE.
+35 soul essence every 3 secs isnt +20% healing
+160 willp isnt +20% healing
and still, WP have access to that 2 tactics

Im not talking for "order advantage" im talking about WP and DoK and WP is BETTER => have access to better tactics and utility.

+160 Willpower raises healing by 5-11% and also disrupts, and it always works unlike ED which you have to position and spec yourself for. Much less importantly it can't be shattered.

The difference between a DoK using Discipline vs WP with ED is not huge.

the difference is that WP can (and will) slot ED+discipline and that means a real difference.

No, they won't. Almost no WP slots both. Discipline is almost considered a meme Tactic and yet Destro is acting like a WP tactic that is marginally better than a meme tactic is somehow a game-breaking advantage for Order that justifies realm balance being broken.

WP and DOK have the following mirrored tactics to consider on their own:

Healing Bubble Proc, AOE Detaunt, Resource on Being Hit, Group Cleanse, AP Restore. Most healers will be considering a mix of those five.

If you really want a healing boost, DOKs can put on +9% healing/6% disrupt from Discipline and then stay further back to avoid setbacks (and CC, and damage) which WILL impact your healing. Few WPs are going to dump Discipline on top of ED. The other mutual options are too strong to ignore in favor of doubling down just to create this Mythical "healing advantage" of Order's.

[Foofmonger]

Spoiler:

+160 Willpower raises healing by 5-11% and also disrupts, and it always works unlike ED which you have to position and spec yourself for. Much less importantly it can't be shattered.

The difference between a DoK using Discipline vs WP with ED is not huge.

the difference is that WP can (and will) slot ED+discipline and that means a real difference.

No, they won't. Almost no WP slots both. Discipline is almost considered a meme Tactic and yet Destro is acting like a WP tactic that is marginally better than a meme tactic is somehow a game-breaking advantage for Order that justifies realm balance being broken.

WP and DOK have the following mirrored tactics to consider on their own:

Healing Bubble Proc, AOE Detaunt, Resource on Being Hit, Group Cleanse, AP Restore. Most healers will be considering a mix of those five.

If you really want a healing boost, DOKs can put on +9% healing/6% disrupt from Discipline and then stay further back to avoid setbacks (and CC, and damage) which WILL impact your healing. Few WPs are going to dump Discipline on top of ED. The other mutual options are too strong to ignore in favor of doubling down just to create this Mythical "healing advantage" of Order's.

I'll bite, since I brought up the healing advantage and I need to examine my own biases.

So you believe that Focused Mending, + ED is not indicative of a healing advantage for order? I know you touched on this above, but kind of want to recap. Why is that? Why is the combination of the knight aura and the "potential" increased healing from ED not equating to an actual healing advantage? It is because of the Chosen debuff? Is it because nobody runs FM/ED? I'm trying to wrap my head around the argument you are making, and I want to be objective about it.

What am I missing from my biased destro perspective that's not clicking for me is basically what I'm wondering.

[teiloh]

I'll bite, since I brought up the healing advantage and I need to examine my own biases.

So you believe that Focused Mending, + ED is not indicative of a healing advantage for order? I know you touched on this above, but kind of want to recap. Why is that? Why is the combination of the knight aura and the "potential" increased healing from ED not equating to an actual healing advantage? It is because of the Chosen debuff? Is it because nobody runs FM/ED? I'm trying to wrap my head around the argument you are making, and I want to be objective about it.

What am I missing from my biased destro perspective that's not clicking for me is basically what I'm wondering.

I play a ton of healers. Healing output and effective healing depends on a lot more than your Willpower, Tooltip value, and modifiers.

It also depends heavily on your AP/Resource management, cooldowns and survivability. You can't heal if you're dead, set back, CCed, running for your life or starved of AP/RF. This is why DoKs regularly pump out equal or more healing than WPs despite not having access to FM/ED.

There is no healing advantage.

And that's before considering:

1. Destro heal debuffs are superior. RSH has greater range and more Ailments to key off of, WE outgoing procs non-stop and has a greater than 100% uptime, both Zealot and DoK have the offensive proc vs. RP alone (the least likely DPS there is), Chosen incoming debuff is more viable than Knight outgoing since auras are 30 feet and thus "layer" over a bomb geo-target better, BG version has no cooldown and better suits the role of the BG.

2. Destro cures are superior. Khaine's Withdrawal, enough said.

3. Destro cooldown decreasers are superior, and this compounds 1 and 2 and directly affects healing (Shaman FoDG, DoK KR)

4. Destro cooldown increasers are superior. A pouncing class with a 40ft cone is better for landing debuffs fast than a 30ft area on a squishy class. You'll see the Destro version up a full 2-4 seconds sooner than the Slayer version. Then BOs also have a single target version of this as if they weren't strong enough. Also, see 2. Destro can cure all Order incoming heal debuffs and CD decreasers with one M2.

5. Destro interrupts are superior. Magus is better than Engi and their AOE interrupt is instant. Marauder has a shorter CD, better targeted AOE interrupt core. Tons of non-immunity knocks (BO, mSH, Zealot).

As for Chosen, don't forget the build-time increase debuff. You can do the math of 1 vs 1.25s cast times or 2.5 vs. 3.1 cast times for WP/non-WP group heals, respectively. This is an Aura Chosen can slot because they don't need to run a shitty one called Stay Focused.

[Foofmonger]

I'll bite, since I brought up the healing advantage and I need to examine my own biases.

So you believe that Focused Mending, + ED is not indicative of a healing advantage for order? I know you touched on this above, but kind of want to recap. Why is that? Why is the combination of the knight aura and the "potential" increased healing from ED not equating to an actual healing advantage? It is because of the Chosen debuff? Is it because nobody runs FM/ED? I'm trying to wrap my head around the argument you are making, and I want to be objective about it.

What am I missing from my biased destro perspective that's not clicking for me is basically what I'm wondering.

I play a ton of healers. Healing output and effective healing depends on a lot more than your Willpower, Tooltip value, and modifiers.

It also depends heavily on your AP/Resource management, cooldowns and survivability. You can't heal if you're dead, set back, CCed, running for your life or starved of AP/RF. This is why DoKs regularly pump out equal or more healing than WPs despite not having access to FM/ED.

There is no healing advantage.

And that's before considering:

1. Destro heal debuffs are superior. RSH has greater range and more Ailments to key off of, WE outgoing procs non-stop and has a greater than 100% uptime, both Zealot and DoK have the offensive proc vs. RP alone (the least likely DPS there is), Chosen incoming debuff is more viable than Knight outgoing since auras are 30 feet and thus "layer" over a bomb geo-target better, BG version has no cooldown and better suits the role of the BG.

2. Destro cures are superior. Khaine's Withdrawal, enough said.

3. Destro cooldown decreasers are superior, and this compounds 1 and 2 and directly affects healing (Shaman FoDG, DoK KR)

4. Destro cooldown increasers are superior. A pouncing class with a 40ft cone is better for landing debuffs fast than a 30ft area on a squishy class. You'll see the Destro version up a full 2-4 seconds sooner than the Slayer version. Then BOs also have a single target version of this as if they weren't strong enough. Also, see 2. Destro can cure all Order incoming heal debuffs and CD decreasers with one M2.

5. Destro interrupts are superior. Magus is better than Engi and their AOE interrupt is instant. Marauder has a shorter CD, better targeted AOE interrupt core. Tons of non-immunity knocks (BO, mSH, Zealot).

As for Chosen, don't forget the build-time increase debuff. You can do the math of 1 vs 1.25s cast times or 2.5 vs. 3.1 cast times for WP/non-WP group heals, respectively. This is an Aura Chosen can slot because they don't need to run a shitty one called Stay Focused.

Ok, thats more or less reasonable. A few questions/statements:

1. Would you say Order has better "burst healing" than Destro due to FM+ED? (in terms of raw values) but that Destro has better tools to keep up sustained healing, equating to roughly equal healing numbers over a given period of time?

2. Yea Destro heal debuffs are better, 100% agreed. I thought the WP has the DoK proc though, no? I double checked and I think I must be delusional and dreamed this cause I'm not seeing it. Why don't WP's have a healing debuff?

3. Cures, sure makes sense.

4. Cooldown decreases makes sense.

5. Interrupts make sense, but to be fair, the Mara rupt does have the same cooldown as the WL version (its just the CD reducer issue you already mentioned above making it seem like it happens more, they are both 10 seconds).

6. Build time increase debuff is great, sure no argument there.

[teiloh]

I wouldn't. To qualify as burst healing, imo, certain conditions need to be met: the target must essentially be "saved" from death or some other disabling condition. It's more about getting a heal in when it matters, and often a 10-20% difference in healed output will not matter. This is why I toss a lot of Heal+HoTs, it's enough to do the job (a certain percent of times) even if its value is low. The value matters, but mechanics like speed and range are often more essential.

Now that the Shaman has Desperation (one of dozens of instances of one-way mirroring from Order to Destro), they're probably the best burst healer in the game. FoDG with Destros obscene CD reducer advantage is by and far the most healing you can get out of one character supported by one group member.

[Foofmonger]

I wouldn't. To qualify as burst healing, imo, certain conditions need to be met: the target must essentially be "saved" from death or some other disabling condition. It's more about getting a heal in when it matters, and often a 10-20% difference in healed output will not matter. This is why I toss a lot of Heal+HoTs, it's enough to do the job (a certain percent of times) even if its value is low. The value matters, but mechanics like speed and range are often more essential.

Now that the Shaman has Desperation (one of dozens of instances of one-way mirroring from Order to Destro), they're probably the best burst healer in the game. FoDG with Destros obscene CD reducer advantage is by and far the most healing you can get out of one character supported by one group member.

Got it, so really, it's that Order has "theoretical" healing advantage on paper, but in practice, a variety of variables and factors even this out to roughly similar levels of effective healing.

So, to discuss further. Based on your feedback above, what would be your proposed solutions for fixing these balance issues?

[teiloh]

I wouldn't. To qualify as burst healing, imo, certain conditions need to be met: the target must essentially be "saved" from death or some other disabling condition. It's more about getting a heal in when it matters, and often a 10-20% difference in healed output will not matter. This is why I toss a lot of Heal+HoTs, it's enough to do the job (a certain percent of times) even if its value is low. The value matters, but mechanics like speed and range are often more essential.

Now that the Shaman has Desperation (one of dozens of instances of one-way mirroring from Order to Destro), they're probably the best burst healer in the game. FoDG with Destros obscene CD reducer advantage is by and far the most healing you can get out of one character supported by one group member.

Got it, so really, it's that Order has "theoretical" healing advantage on paper, but in practice, a variety of variables and factors even this out to roughly similar levels of effective healing.

So, to discuss further. Based on your feedback above, what would be your proposed solutions for fixing these balance issues?

To start, balancing CD increasers/reducers is a must. I'd remove the BO version (at least two devs seem to agree that it a questionable change). Chop Fasta should be on a 60s timer once more. SM Whirling Winds should be given a small range and something other than Silence. My old proposal was making it a 25% heal steal, but Mythic stole this idea and put it on the Marauder. Then make Crashing Wave an AOE. The BO is in need of a few other balance alterations but I think I'll stop here.

For Squigs, make Bad Gas! the 30s timed AOE CD increaser again. I'd like a see an entire rework tbh, in which Squig Leap would be removed period (with compensation elsewhere) and the mSH made to synergize better with the rest of the class.

Knight Stay Focused should do something other than its crap heal on defense. Don't see why the AP regen was removed.

WH could use a few more skills that trigger bullets.

Beyond that I'd make Khaine's Withdrawal an M3 and swap it with Universal Confusion, scaling down the damage on UC somewhat for its new position.

Then make KW remove Curses once more, but then also replace AM's Arcane Suppression with a ground-target AOE effect that nullifies ally debuffs in the radius for 7 seconds.