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City Winner History?

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tefnaht
Posts: 73

Re: City Winner History?

Post#141 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:40 am

wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:19 pm
Functionally, Order has plenty of tools to run a successful melee train on paper.
Half of dps classes have no place in this close combat aoe spam meta, how they can to organize anything valuable? Reroll? Last 2 armor sets have no analogue in PvE and have no other place to get it. If current statement with afk "no place in wb" classes in some instances is a problem - give other ways for this people to achieve end game gear or make place in wb for them or not blend wb\premade with solo q. And with "no place in wb" bigger for order, not only because class spread in population, but with the count of valuable classes in fraction for that specific setup.

I think, this is not a big problem, all gets theirs progression(just not so "fun"), close combat aoe spam was meta at live and so is here, just more dps classes involved to this, not all, but more. But at live any tokens can be dropped from players(depends on their rr)...

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teiloh
Posts: 287

Re: City Winner History?

Post#142 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:44 am

emiliorv wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:43 am

you mean, DoK dont have that CORE tactic wich mostly wp use and can slot something else (worse ofc) => sure, when you dont have a uber tactic can slot "something else". But having "something else" (wich wp almost have too) dont means that healing output are "equilized" like you are trying to argue...
You are having trouble grasping very simple logic.

Say you have a choice of 5-6 tactics that increase your overall healing by 10-20% each (by raising healing, or resource, or survivability).

The guy with one more choice, a choice between 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, and 15 isn't better off than the guy with a choice between 15, 15, 15, 15, 15 and 15.

This "MUH ORDER HEAL ADVANTAGE" is nothing more than a Destro meme, pure political propaganda.

orillah
Posts: 147

Re: City Winner History?

Post#143 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:09 am

Stalkarn wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:33 am
orillah wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:12 am
Most destro "players" will defend themselves with all their stamina like they always do in pretty much all topics, claiming wins comes exclusively from their superior skills and extra long "members" that makes them superior in pretty much all city sieges. xD

To be serious, im stopped playing a while ago, but participated in 3-4 city sieges per week from february till late june, and the only time order won overall city score - was the very first siege happened at feb 23(?), that ended in a draw. After that it was 4 month of undisputed destro dominance.

Frankly i win most the instances i participate in, mostly because i always try to find good org wb to join. But still only saw 1 draw in 4-5 monts xD.
So, you Do win "exclusively from your superior skills". ^
I only played order tanks, and most the time good wb pretty much "carried" me :\
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Alfa1986
Posts: 438

Re: City Winner History?

Post#144 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:44 am

the most successful time for order is the Prime time NA (X <15 (17)), here the order can even won the sity siege.

In the Prime Time EU, the forces of order and destruction are approximately equal, but the destruction wins with a slight advantage.

The worst time for order is the intervals between these two intervals, the difference between win/lose can often reach more than 8 instances in favor of destro.
Spoiler:

EU
X>25

After MN
31(17/14) 4
28(14/14) 0
26(15/11) 4
28(15/13) 2
33(17/16) 1
27(16/11) 5
26(18/8) 10
30(18/12) 6
29(15/14) 1
28(19/9) 10
Total 10/4

X>25

Before MN

35(22/13)9
27(15/12)3
26(15/11)4
30(21/9)11
25(16/9)7
29(15/14)1
30(22/8)14
27(14/13)1
28(23/5)8
29(17/12)5
25(14/11)3
Total 17/9

NA

X<15

After MN
13(5/8)-3
15(9/6)3
13(8/5)3
14(8/6)2
12(4/8)-4
12(5/7)-2
12(6/6)0
13(6/7)-1
15(5/10)-5
14(7/7)0
15(12/3)9
15(9/6)3
17(6/5)1
12(7/5)2
13(8/5)3
12(6/6)0

Total 16/2

X<17

Before MN
15(11/5)6
17(12/5)7
16(11/5)6
15(10/5)5
16(9/7)2
15(9/6)3
13(10/3)7
17(11/6)5
11(6/5)1
12(6/6)0
13(7/6)1
17(12/5)7

Total 12/7

15<X<25

After MN

18(8/10)-2
20(14/6)8
17(8/9)-1
19(9/10)-1
24(15/9)6
17(7/10)-3
17(11/6)5
17(13/4)8
16(12/4)8
22(17/5)12
20(14/6)8
20(11/9)3
19(13/6)7

Total 13/9

Before MN
17<X<25
18(12/6)6
19(10/9)1
20(13/8)6
23(13/10)3
17(14/4)10
22(12/10)2
19(12/7)5
21(12/9)3
21(13/8)5
20(11/9)2
24(15/9)6
19(8/11)-3
21(12/9)3
Total 13/6
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Bozzax
Posts: 2104

Re: City Winner History?

Post#145 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:02 pm

teiloh wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:44 am
emiliorv wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:43 am

you mean, DoK dont have that CORE tactic wich mostly wp use and can slot something else (worse ofc) => sure, when you dont have a uber tactic can slot "something else". But having "something else" (wich wp almost have too) dont means that healing output are "equilized" like you are trying to argue...
You are having trouble grasping very simple logic.

Say you have a choice of 5-6 tactics that increase your overall healing by 10-20% each (by raising healing, or resource, or survivability).

The guy with one more choice, a choice between 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, and 15 isn't better off than the guy with a choice between 15, 15, 15, 15, 15 and 15.

This "MUH ORDER HEAL ADVANTAGE" is nothing more than a Destro meme, pure political propaganda.
+20% outgoing ED is the best healer tactic in game (outside of grp clns)
+15% incoming FM kniggit is order only
+5% kniggy crits from DT is order only
+10% IB crits from AF order only (not as common)
+8% SW crits from LS (quite rare)

0.25s RP reduced cast time is (RP, AM) .... mirrored with absorb

But lets not use facts
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

emiliorv
Posts: 519

Re: City Winner History?

Post#146 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:09 pm

teiloh wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:44 am
emiliorv wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:43 am

you mean, DoK dont have that CORE tactic wich mostly wp use and can slot something else (worse ofc) => sure, when you dont have a uber tactic can slot "something else". But having "something else" (wich wp almost have too) dont means that healing output are "equilized" like you are trying to argue...
You are having trouble grasping very simple logic.

Say you have a choice of 5-6 tactics that increase your overall healing by 10-20% each (by raising healing, or resource, or survivability).

The guy with one more choice, a choice between 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, and 15 isn't better off than the guy with a choice between 15, 15, 15, 15, 15 and 15.

This "MUH ORDER HEAL ADVANTAGE" is nothing more than a Destro meme, pure political propaganda.
its totally false that all the tactics you have to chose have the same weight, and its totally false that dok have any tactic available to increase +20% healing => FALSEEEEEE.
+35 soul essence every 3 secs isnt +20% healing
+160 willp isnt +20% healing
and still, WP have access to that 2 tactics

Im not talking for "order advantage" im talking about WP and DoK and WP is BETTER => have access to better tactics and utility.

Omegus
Posts: 477

Re: City Winner History?

Post#147 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:50 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:19 pm
I'm pretty sure it boils down to Fashionhammer swaying class distribution in melee. Destro melee looks cool across the board. Order has a cat-elf and a naked midget to compliment their dress-wearing swordy-elf, codpiece feather-knight, and angry garbage can, with a token bald-man melee healer (facetiously critical here, most order classes look pretty good to me personally). Functionally, Order has plenty of tools to run a successful melee train on paper. Unfortunately, we can't make them more appealing to play visually. Assets are hard, database isn't. I dunno, no one mentioned it yet, might as well get this theory rolling too.
And thus we go full circle and arrive back at Bombling's order is like it is thread. A lot of people pick classes based on how they look and feel and for the power fantasy. Order has a lot of ranged power fantasies (dude with gun and another gun, Legolas, FIRE WIZARD) while destro has the big hulking melee brute fantasy nailed. At the moment the top-tier content meta favours melee so the side with more popular melee classes will win.

Back before cities (and during the time when city isn't running) those BWs and Engis take a giant dump on most of the melee while sitting 100ft (or way more for Engis) in harder to reach places while the melee stand around not doing much (maybe camp a postern). Hell, today in the Black Crag defense I couldn't even stand on the inner keep walls as the mass of Engineers on the outer walls can reach and snipe everyone so immediately the defenders are pushed inside.
tefnaht wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:40 am
Half of dps classes have no place in this close combat aoe spam meta, how they can to organize anything valuable? Reroll? Last 2 armor sets have no analogue in PvE and have no other place to get it. If current statement with afk "no place in wb" classes in some instances is a problem - give other ways for this people to achieve end game gear or make place in wb for them or not blend wb\premade with solo q. And with "no place in wb" bigger for order, not only because class spread in population, but with the count of valuable classes in fraction for that specific setup.

I think, this is not a big problem, all gets theirs progression(just not so "fun"), close combat aoe spam was meta at live and so is here, just more dps classes involved to this, not all, but more. But at live any tokens can be dropped from players(depends on their rr)...
All 6 order and destro DPS classes have a place in city WBs, it's just that for some of those classes you only want 1. A single Engi is often brought along, a single WH (unless doing something very specific it competes with the ASW), 1-2 ASW if running a tight melee train, etc, where-as you can stack up BWs/Slayers/WLs much easier. Hell, some classes like Engi and WH really only have a good place in organised WBs and are kinda a waste in less organised WBs. It seems a lot of players in this thread either don't regularly fight with and/or against good city WBs so don't know what works and what doesn't.

Also, order's main meta for cities at the moment is ST melee train with some cleave support. They do the ST train far better than destro. Throw in some hybrid-spec BWs alternate between AOE pressure and throwing out quick nukes to finish off targets from range and Slayers doing what Slayers do. It works well.
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Valarion
Posts: 298

Re: City Winner History?

Post#148 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:22 pm

nat3s wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:49 pm
Order has the better melee train with WL, Slayer and aSW, but almost all Order premades I've faced in cities with PNP have been the standard BW deathball comp because Order has too many BW/Engis. I can't tell you how many times we've queued into Bombling and known it was a free win.

Problem Order has is deathball is sooooo overused that it's now incredibly easy to counter as Destro have had sooooo much experience facing it: You see the BW ball approaching, you spread to avoid aoe and morale bomb, you then regroup after they've bombed and you've got a nicely grouped up bunch of Order squishies to nuke. Simple.

Things won't get better until BW and Engi are less prevalent for Order such that other meta comps, such as their incredibly strong melee train, see a bit more use imo. They need to ditch the 1 dimensional persistence with only running BW deathballs.

Bombling is far from a free win, but yes, the BW bomb comp at least has a straight forward and well known counter that has been practiced within the PnP/FMJ/ICONIC Alliance. Fenryl's wb, the Slayer-Impending Doom spam comp is harder for the Alliance to counter.

The good news is at the very highest levels of play, things are fairly equal. The top Order wbs are roughly equivalent to the top Destro wbs and they trade wins/losses back and forth. The deciding factors in my experience usually come down to practice, comms and the leaders adapting tactics to counter the enemy's particular (expected) composition.
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40s: WP/Dok AM/Shaman RP/Zeal Knight/Chosen SM/BO BW/Sorc WL & Eng

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Draugris
Posts: 296

Re: City Winner History?

Post#149 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:05 pm

So what have we learned from this thread so far,

1) Order bad, Destro gud
2) Destro mostly Roleplayers

I don't know, as long as these "opinions" are around that much, no wonder that things are how they are. If in a game based around RvR such faction imbalances are the case like it is here this is a serious issue. Like others have already pointed out, there will be and there is already a snowball effect and more "bad" order players will magically transfer to "gud" destro players. This is not healthy for the game as a whole.
Kaelang wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:41 am
You misinterpreted. I’m saying yes to more data from the community.
Technical question here. Are you able to extract data like how many instances were played when, how many players played per instance on which faction, who won etc. from the database or from logs?
Live: Carroburg -> Santorro (WH), The first Guard (TfG)

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empmoz
Posts: 79

Re: City Winner History?

Post#150 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:02 pm

I've been playing on this server long enough to remember when Order dominated RvR, with seemingly unbeatable close range BW nuking and slayer aoe spam. Now Destro is learning and and countering the old meta, and making a new meta in the process.

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