City Winner History?

[wargrimnir]

Throwing any buffs on that dumpster fire of player behavior would need to be targeted at pug-level RDPS classes that overpopulate Order warbands to push any sort of result, and still probably wouldn't matter a whole lot without being clearly broken (see highlighted week of SW's literally murdering people with a single overtuned DOT). From a development perspective, it's a not a class balance issue.

Or at least, it's not a problem that could be reasonably be solved by class balance in a balanced manner.

Since you sidestepped the entire topic of my post, time of day population flux effecting the available player pool and the effect it has on building competetive warbands, let me instead ask a question you might be able to answer given your access to internal discussions.

Were the SW nerfs driven by feedback of experienced SW players interested in class balance or by certain people being 'murdered' by an overtuned DOT?

Math? Even I can, at a remedial level, look at number grow too bigly. I find the implication the BHA DOT being acceptable at the initial release to be strongly disingenuous towards easily observed reality. No realm bias needed there.

I'm not sure what exactly you wanted to ruminate on regarding population flux over the day. City sieges pop at all hours, Order class distribution doesn't fluctuate across all hours. One might assume that coordinated warbands are more likely to show up during peak hours for each major timezone. But that also brings a relative increase of pug players that go on to fill out the remaining cities, so coordinated WB effect on instance win/loss is diluted by virtue of more pugs showing up to fill out janky instances.

I'm pretty sure it boils down to Fashionhammer swaying class distribution in melee. Destro melee looks cool across the board. Order has a cat-elf and a naked midget to compliment their dress-wearing swordy-elf, codpiece feather-knight, and angry garbage can, with a token bald-man melee healer (facetiously critical here, most order classes look pretty good to me personally). Functionally, Order has plenty of tools to run a successful melee train on paper. Unfortunately, we can't make them more appealing to play visually. Assets are hard, database isn't. I dunno, no one mentioned it yet, might as well get this theory rolling too.

[Foofmonger]

You forgot about angry religious man in big hat with gun.

I certainly didn't, he's just hard to see.

[teiloh]

Why are you guys so dead set on investigating a 60% win rate v a 70%? With 28 instances, its like 16 v 19 wins total. A couple more wins isn't a huge sway, hence why its an outlier. Flip a coin a couple times and you might get heads 4 times in a row. Could just be that on a certain day Destro got the better of a couple extra instances. A couple wins the other way and you have an Order victory.

But seriously, Order just needs to shelve engineers and play more tanks, and cities will be way more competitive on average. The vast majority of city fights I've had Order only brought 3ish tanks and 5ish healing healers (not counting DPS AMs). How do you expect to win with crappy comps like that?

More of this "you only play Engineers" nonsense. The win rate is hard evidence of something that has already been spelled out for months; realm balance is off.

Would love to see gear rate, distribution of of rr70/rr80s, distributions of full sovs, DPS logs etc but we don't have those handily available.

[teiloh]

I'm pretty sure it boils down to Fashionhammer swaying class distribution in melee. Destro melee looks cool across the board. Order has a cat-elf and a naked midget to compliment their dress-wearing swordy-elf, codpiece feather-knight, and angry garbage can, with a token bald-man melee healer (facetiously critical here, most order classes look pretty good to me personally). Functionally, Order has plenty of tools to run a successful melee train on paper. Unfortunately, we can't make them more appealing to play visually. Assets are hard, database isn't. I dunno, no one mentioned it yet, might as well get this theory rolling too.

I think we can easily test this theory, e.g. the weighting of class balance vs Fashionhammer, by slipping in a few tweaks to a class and measuring the response in population/rps earned/win rates, etc.

e.g. we could improve Whispering Winds until it's a true mirror to Chop Fasta/the questionable BO version, and maybe add a few tweaks here and there like making Crashing Wave an AOE KD.

[Detangler]

Why are you guys so dead set on investigating a 60% win rate v a 70%? With 28 instances, its like 16 v 19 wins total. A couple more wins isn't a huge sway, hence why its an outlier. Flip a coin a couple times and you might get heads 4 times in a row. Could just be that on a certain day Destro got the better of a couple extra instances. A couple wins the other way and you have an Order victory.

But seriously, Order just needs to shelve engineers and play more tanks, and cities will be way more competitive on average. The vast majority of city fights I've had Order only brought 3ish tanks and 5ish healing healers (not counting DPS AMs). How do you expect to win with crappy comps like that?

More of this "you only play Engineers" nonsense. The win rate is hard evidence of something that has already been spelled out for months; realm balance is off.

Would love to see gear rate, distribution of of rr70/rr80s, distributions of full sovs, DPS logs etc but we don't have those handily available.

Its not nonsense when half the cities i've been in have 3+ engineers or 12 DPS classes. How many cities have you run into with Destro running crap tank/dps/heal ratios?

[wargrimnir]

I'm pretty sure it boils down to Fashionhammer swaying class distribution in melee. Destro melee looks cool across the board. Order has a cat-elf and a naked midget to compliment their dress-wearing swordy-elf, codpiece feather-knight, and angry garbage can, with a token bald-man melee healer (facetiously critical here, most order classes look pretty good to me personally). Functionally, Order has plenty of tools to run a successful melee train on paper. Unfortunately, we can't make them more appealing to play visually. Assets are hard, database isn't. I dunno, no one mentioned it yet, might as well get this theory rolling too.

I think we can easily test this theory, e.g. the weighting of class balance vs Fashionhammer, by slipping in a few tweaks to a class and measuring the response in population/rps earned/win rates, etc.

e.g. we could improve Whispering Winds until it's a true mirror to Chop Fasta/the questionable BO version, and maybe add a few tweaks here and there like making Crashing Wave an AOE KD.

I've always thought the BO version was probably uncalled for, but I'm not sure it would get any use if you gave Choppas a utility skill that doesn't involve actual choppin'.

[mytreds]

Why are you guys so dead set on investigating a 60% win rate v a 70%? With 28 instances, its like 16 v 19 wins total. A couple more wins isn't a huge sway, hence why its an outlier. Flip a coin a couple times and you might get heads 4 times in a row. Could just be that on a certain day Destro got the better of a couple extra instances. A couple wins the other way and you have an Order victory.

But seriously, Order just needs to shelve engineers and play more tanks, and cities will be way more competitive on average. The vast majority of city fights I've had Order only brought 3ish tanks and 5ish healing healers (not counting DPS AMs). How do you expect to win with crappy comps like that?

More of this "you only play Engineers" nonsense. The win rate is hard evidence of something that has already been spelled out for months; realm balance is off.

Would love to see gear rate, distribution of of rr70/rr80s, distributions of full sovs, DPS logs etc but we don't have those handily available.

Its not nonsense when half the cities i've been in have 3+ engineers or 12 DPS classes. How many cities have you run into with Destro running crap tank/dps/heal ratios?

It’s about half from our perspective as well. But again, since bit our evidences are anecdotal, we should rely on the numbers, which show Destro winning a majority of cities instances by a country mile. If a majority of players play a certain side, and that side is winning a majority of the time, your logic concludes that it is the minorities fault for “not being good enough”. If order really was that OP and “full of synergy” as many claim, why is it that they lose most instances? If WLs, Slayers, Knights are so overtuned and poor poor Destro is nowhere near as good, why does a majority play the “worse” side?

Many of Destro arguments here are actually making the case for Order, but you can’t even see it. It’s pretty funny if it wasn’t so sad.

[hammerhead]

You put the cart in front of the horse. The order does not have the initiative to play in balanced groups, as well as there is no initiative at all to somehow coordinate more than guild events, but this is not a cause but a consequence.

And the reason here it is
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39498&p=425059#p425059

And ask yourself again why the order doesn’t want to play with its tanks, and I’ll give you the answer options
a - Because they are castrated for 6 consecutive years
b - Because their exclusive skills are mirrored
c - Because two out of three were forbidden to inflict any significant damage even in profile trees.
d - Because few people like to lose control for 10 or more seconds in a minute cycle.
e - Because strong players defending their classes either switched sides or left the project, because it is private and no one is keeping anyone here.
f - I personally don't care, but few people like skirts.

What is the topic in a row? Second or third? Don't waste time, the order does not want and will not play the way you want. Order will dress their dolls and play on the scenes and the RVR will belong to the third faction of xrealmers.

[teiloh]

I'm pretty sure it boils down to Fashionhammer swaying class distribution in melee. Destro melee looks cool across the board. Order has a cat-elf and a naked midget to compliment their dress-wearing swordy-elf, codpiece feather-knight, and angry garbage can, with a token bald-man melee healer (facetiously critical here, most order classes look pretty good to me personally). Functionally, Order has plenty of tools to run a successful melee train on paper. Unfortunately, we can't make them more appealing to play visually. Assets are hard, database isn't. I dunno, no one mentioned it yet, might as well get this theory rolling too.

I think we can easily test this theory, e.g. the weighting of class balance vs Fashionhammer, by slipping in a few tweaks to a class and measuring the response in population/rps earned/win rates, etc.

e.g. we could improve Whispering Winds until it's a true mirror to Chop Fasta/the questionable BO version, and maybe add a few tweaks here and there like making Crashing Wave an AOE KD.

I've always thought the BO version was probably uncalled for, but I'm not sure it would get any use if you gave Choppas a utility skill that doesn't involve actual choppin'.

I think back when Chop Fasta was on a 20/60 uptime (and the BO version didn't exist) there was closer balance as the SM's version is higher on the tree, requires a hit and imparts an unfavorable CC/immunity. WW could use a little bit of an improvement imo unless CF/Waaagh is getting looked at.

[Alfa1986]

Yea it seemes to be 3-4 hours before EU primetime, or roughly 3-4 hours after EU primetime is where we're getting these hugely biased cities for destro. Not sure what we can infer from that, but it's noteworthy I think.

yeah, strange coincidences. the main thing is that we can conclude that these deviations are most likely not the result of imbalance.

What deviations? Sorry, I've lost track of what we're talking about and want to make sure.

It's not the deviations of City Siege wins, because those are all destro. lol.
It's not the deviations in mean instance victories, because those are stable at 60/40.

Do you mean the deviations in the mean win rates? Where destro wins by >70%? It must be this. I think Foof had it right above when he said these were the results of failed pushes that a fresh population gets to come in and wipe up later.

Also, I've copied all the numbers I have into a page a HERE if anyone wants to analyze it themselves. It's got the latest two cities from today and yesterday added to it now.

A little bit wrong, as I said during the peak hours of gaming activity the ratio of order/destro wins is approximately the same, with a slight advantage on destro side. A huge imbalance appears between these two time periods, when the majority of EU players have already left the game, and the backbone of NA players has not yet entered the game and vise versa.

even made a picture for fun. normal cities are orange, imbalance is green.

Spoiler:

We do not have all the exact time data, but we know that a large number of open instances usually correspond to EU prime time. before moral nerf we have the mess, but after moral nerf the forces are relatively equalized. there are a few cases where there is an imbalance, but I guess these happened else before EU prime time like the last one in 5 pm (that is too early for EU main force, but it is prime time for russians (fmj) ).

Spoiler:

31(17/14)
28(14/14)
26(15/11)
28(15/13)
33(17/16)
27(16/11)
26(18/8)???
30(18/12)
29(15/14)
28(19/9)??? 5 pm