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let's talk about city ability faction bias

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slattie
Posts: 26

let's talk about city ability faction bias

Post#1 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:11 am

first things first, city is exclusive end game content. any argument about open rvr overpowered abilities means your opinion does not apply to end game content.

SECONDLY, If you're gonna troll, at least be clevER

Here's a list of abilities that are destr bias:

1.) magus pull is instant, mirror engi pull requires a couple gcd set up

2.) core ability mouth of tzeench mara has 40 ft range aoe conal frontal interrupt, white lion is 15 foot pbaoe speccable ability. sm interrupt speccable ability 'crshing advance' is 15ft range. slight bias - mara also has 3 more abilities than wl,

3.) ^^ v convenient for gtdc since it's range is 40 ft. gtdc can be abused by double pulling. used to remove all defensive checks (including guard checks) on a target. pulls instantly. GTDC is so powerful that end game content wb city groups base their composition on gtdc rotations. position is everything in pvp mmo's like this. that being said, only one faction has an instant cast ability that makes it so you can't kite. also, order doesn't have any ability that is anything similar. is there a comparable order ability that is so powerful that it drives wb leaders to require 4+ of the same class to run it for a winning composition?

4.) RUN AWAY! tactic has no mirror. top 3 tactic in the game, only 1 faction has it. 25% chance for 30% runspeed. does not dispel on ability use.

5.) Concussive jolt, marauder abiltiy. 25ft aoe stun insta cast, 20s cd, 20s immunity. can be comboed with GTDC. CONVENIENT.

6.) squig charge - knockback without immunity

for these abilities above, I say order is getting hosed.

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xarax
Posts: 156

Re: let's talk about city ability faction bias

Post#2 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:32 am

if i remember correctly magus pull is also 1sec casttime like engi and you losing fights because gits run "Run away"??
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hellc95
Posts: 5

Re: let's talk about city ability faction bias

Post#3 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:53 am

Here's my two cents: Destruction can go around in a big melee blob, their tanks have much more aoe compared to order tanks, gttc makes their aoe spam more deadly and the aow knockdown is a great advantage wich order will likely never see since it is an engi thing. So, as order you have to go around it, literally, you have to spread, kite, pick healers, play in a more "guerrilla" style, avoid damage by running around. Order plays on more skilled individuals, while Destruction plays on coordination, or at least that's my experience.
So, why order get trampled? The skill cap on order is much higher and pugs rarely pull this out, and when they do is by chance, leading to some "OMG! How did we win? LMAO!" situation, since many don't get what happened. I only played Order so far though, so I don't know if this is an objective answer.
Last edited by hellc95 on Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Panodil
Posts: 237

Re: let's talk about city ability faction bias

Post#4 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:05 am

Order have more damage and healing
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MMXX43
Posts: 60

Re: let's talk about city ability faction bias

Post#5 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:15 am

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kirraha
Posts: 137

Re: let's talk about city ability faction bias

Post#6 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:18 am

slattie wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:11 am
first things first, city is exclusive end game content. any argument about open rvr overpowered abilities means your opinion does not apply to end game content.

SECONDLY, If you're gonna troll, at least be clevER

Here's a list of abilities that are destr bias:

1.) magus pull is instant, mirror engi pull requires a couple gcd set up

2.) core ability mouth of tzeench mara has 40 ft range aoe conal frontal interrupt, white lion is 15 foot pbaoe speccable ability. sm interrupt speccable ability 'crshing advance' is 15ft range. slight bias - mara also has 3 more abilities than wl,

3.) ^^ v convenient for gtdc since it's range is 40 ft. gtdc can be abused by double pulling. used to remove all defensive checks (including guard checks) on a target. pulls instantly. GTDC is so powerful that end game content wb city groups base their composition on gtdc rotations. position is everything in pvp mmo's like this. that being said, only one faction has an instant cast ability that makes it so you can't kite. also, order doesn't have any ability that is anything similar. is there a comparable order ability that is so powerful that it drives wb leaders to require 4+ of the same class to run it for a winning composition?

4.) RUN AWAY! tactic has no mirror. top 3 tactic in the game, only 1 faction has it. 25% chance for 30% runspeed. does not dispel on ability use.

5.) Concussive jolt, marauder abiltiy. 25ft aoe stun insta cast, 20s cd, 20s immunity. can be comboed with GTDC. CONVENIENT.

6.) squig charge - knockback without immunity

for these abilities above, I say order is getting hosed.
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Gurf
Posts: 85

Re: let's talk about city ability faction bias

Post#7 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:24 am

Don't think run away helps in City, I wish it did as it would mean that there was actual space to kite and move but in reality it is not usually the case.

But the main issue I see is that Destro guilds all just use the same tactics which can't really be countered very well in the cramped city, which is basically get a really tight melee heavy ball and melee train everything, and as GTTC can't be countered you are sucked into it even if you try to spread out or try something different. Mara knock you all down, Choppa pulls yo in , If there was more space or varied areas to fight and if GTTC wasn't broken then it might add a bit more variation. If they hadn't given destro the equivalent of Shattered Limbs it might even things out a bit also.

Has any order guild been able to counter this very simple Destro tactic? maybe if you run 8 Slayer warbands it might work

EggYolkeo
Posts: 5

Re: let's talk about city ability faction bias

Post#8 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:25 am

Well, I'm currently working on a layout/spreadsheet that details all of the viable Tactics/Abilities/Masteries used by each class (on both factions) in a warband setting (mainly using city warbands as an example).

I still have a lot more work to do, but I really wanted to create a layout of information for everyone to clearly view, especially to help out the devs in balancing out every class over time (which has always been a struggle to achieve in competitive multiplayer games in general). This will show anything that is unique to a specific class/faction, the amount of viable tactics/abilities available to each class, the amount of utility a class has compared to their mirror class, or class specific tactics/abilities that heavily outweigh the mirror class' tactics/abilities. (So that, instead of calling out for things to be buffed/nerfed/changed without any real evidence, there's no bias related to changes of any kind).

Still work in progress, so if any tactic/ability/mastery is incorrect, please mention it.. There's more than likely tactics/abilities that I have missed for specific builds.. These are mainly viable tactics/abilities/masteries you would typically use in a city warband build (or look viable via the tactic/ability description).

Here's what I've worked on so far:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<Marauder>

Tactics - Brute (160 str) /// Feeding on Fear (20% crit for 5secs after crit) /// Piercing Bite (50% armor pen with abilities requiring mutation) /// Flanking (15%dmg from sides/rear)

Tactics via Mastery - Hulking Brute (increased tough/ini by 100) /// Growing Instability (50% bonus crit dmg) /// Crushing Blows (all hits have 25% chance to remove 225 morale) /// Insane Whispers (mouth of tzeentch causes 50% increased ability build up time for 5secs)

Core Abilities - Gift of Monstrosity (25% to heal 1032 over 5secs, recieve reduced armor pen, passive) /// Flail (instant, 133dmg + 108dmg with mutation, 30ap) /// Death Grip (4sec disarm on parry, 20ap, 5cd) /// Demolition (PB 50% armor pen, instant, 180degree aoe, 35ap, 138dmg, 25ft) /// Mouth of Tzeentch (PB 50% armor pen, instant, 180degree aoe interupt, 133dmg, 30ap, 40ft, 10cd) /// Ferocious Assault (instant, 125 str/tough self buff for 20secs, 60cd) /// Mutated Energy (100ft ranged 3sec knockdown on disrupt, 25ap, 241dmg, 10cd) /// Pulverize (PB 50% armor pen, reduce parry/block by 10% for 20secs, 214dmg, 35ap, 20cd)

Mastery Abilities - Wrecking Ball (PB 50% armor pen, 3sec 180d channeled aoe, 6hits, 132dmg, 30ft, 30ap/s, 13cd) /// Concussive Jolt (instant 180degree aoe 2sec knockdown, 113dmg, 30ap, 25ft, 20cd) /// Wave of Mutilation (instant 360degree aoe, reduced WS/ini by 75/50, 45ap, 553dmg over 21sec, 30ft, 20cd) /// Mutated Aggressor (instant, 25% increased dmg selfbuff for 10secs, 60cd)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<White Lion>

Tactics - Brute (160 str) /// Loner (25% increased dmg, no cd on pounce, no pet) /// Flanking (15%dmg from sides/rear) /// Tearing Blade (slashing blade and sundering chop cause 258dmg over 3secs)

Tactics via Mastery - Hack and Slash (whirling axe and slashing blade 50% armor pen, slashing blade and hack 50% reduced ap cost)

Core Abilities - Trained to Threaten (5% crit selfbuff, passive) /// Hack (H&S 50% reduced ap cost, instant, 134dmg, 30ap/15ap) /// Slashing Blade (H&S 50% armor pen + 50% reduced ap cost, instant, 180degree aoe, 134dmg, 35ap/17.5ap, 25ft)

Mastery Abilities - Whirling Axe (H&S 50% armor pen, 3sec 360degree channeled aoe, 6hits, 131dmg, 30ft, 35ap/s, 13cd) /// Force Opportunity (instant, undefendable, reduce armor by 1000 for 10secs, 184dmg, 25ap, 10cd) /// Pounce (instant, gapcloser, increased movespeed by 35% for 3 secs cancelled by ability use, 159dmg, 30ap, 65ft, 10cd/no cd) /// Primal Fury (instant, 25% increased dmg selfbuff for 10secs, only from sides/rear, 60cd) /// Echoing Roar (instant, 360degree aoe interupt, 390 spirit dmg over 15secs, 35ap, 15ft, 10cd)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<Squig Herder>

Tactics - Masterful Aim (160 bs) /// Pick On Yer Own Size (120 str/bs/ws, 120 reduced tough) /// Territorial Aggression (armor increased by amount gained from items, increased melee dmg by 25%, reduced ranged dmg, no cd on squig leap) /// Pierce Defences (if enemy blocks/dodges/parries, their block/dodge/parry reduced by 15% for 10secs) /// Strength in Numbas (if groupmate hits an enemy, 25% chance to regain 100 morale over 3secs) /// RUN AWAY! (25% when you are hit to increase movespeed by 30% for 5secs) /// Whazat Behind You?! (25% when you are hit to detaunt, enemy damage to 75% for 5secs)

Tactics via Mastery - Sneaky Git (sneaky strike increases chance to defend by 15%) /// Sneaky Stabbin (15% increased dmg when under 45ft away from target) /// 'Ere, Squiggy! (25% chance that 50% of dmg taken is dealt to pet)

Core Abilities - Horned Squig (armor is increased by armor gained from items) /// Sticky Squigz (360degree aoe snare, reduce movespeed by 40% for 10secs, self knockback, no ap, 30ft, 30cd) /// KABOOM! (instant, explode squig armor to knockback enemies, 10ft aoe, 304dmg, 35ap, no cd) /// Bounce (instant, 3sec knockdown, 169dmg, 30ap, 20cd) /// Really Bad Gas! (1sec cast aoe, 210 corp dmg every 2secs for 6 secs, 35ap, 20cd) /// Sneaky Strike (instant, increases armor by large amount for 15secs, 294dmg, 35ap, 10cd) /// Drop That!! (instant, pet disarms target for 4secs, 20ap, 20cd) /// Big Bouncin! (360degree 3sec channeled aoe, repeatedly deal 119dmg, 20ap/s, 8cd) /// Don't Hit Me! (instant, interupt, 169dmg, 30ap, 10cd)

Mastery Abilities - Outta My Way! (instant, channeled, increase movespeed by 75% for 10secs, move through enemies, 20ap/s, 55cd) /// Tastes Like Stuntie (instant, 5sec channeled selfheal, 179 per hit, dmg transfered to healing, 15ap/s, 25cd) /// Indigestion (instant, 180degree aoe, increases cooldowns by 1sec for each enemy hit to a max of 5secs, lasts for 10secs, 85 corp dmg, 20ap, 40ft, 20cd) /// Squig Leap (instant, gapcloser, 144dmg, 30ap, 65ft, 10cd/no cd)

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Gurf
Posts: 85

Re: let's talk about city ability faction bias

Post#9 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:35 am

hellc95 wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:53 am
Order plays on more skilled individuals, while Destruction plays on coordination, or at least that's my experience.
So, why order get trampled? The skill cap on order is much higher and pugs rarely pull this out, and when they do is by chance, leading to some "OMG! How did we win? LMAO!" situation, since many don't get what happened. I only played Order so far though, so I don't know if this is an objective answer.
Yes certainly it is a lot less skill playing the melee ball, you put an Enemy mark on the person who is leading, get very tight to them and spam aoe. Needs a certain amount of discipline to not break ranks out of shear boredom and requires voice coms and basic coordination, but not a particular amount of skill

Grimfang
Suspended
Posts: 125

Re: let's talk about city ability faction bias

Post#10 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:42 am

Order don’t have faction strategy defining abilities. The balancing seems to come from a very class self centric view while destructions seem to benefit their realm. It also follows into the way the realms function. I don’t know if balancing is done by different people but it does seem the des side has more of a faction overview.

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