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Kobra
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Posts: 126

Re: Mist/Napalm

Post#31 » Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:00 pm

Crumbs wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:36 pm
engis napalm still doesnt gain damage bonus from turret mechanic
If true, then it probably stands to reason why crit was left off Mist and if the damage logs are parsed, they're probably fairly equal at this point - I'd guess...

Also, people stating you need a tactic to properly manage a pet acting as if this is a big handicap are neglecting the fact that the pet can be utilized as a CC mechanism with that tactic in place. Choke point holds, keep door push holds, etc. Drop pet, decay it, AOE dmg+3 second KD, resummon pet instantly and build your stacks. Seems like a legitimate use of a tactic to me other than simply using it to insta-summon pets that are easily killed.

While I agree - having the pet not have more HP/Armor/Resists (and AOE immunity) like the WL is a nuisance, and requires excessive monitoring/management, I would also counter that the insta-summon negates that, and provides additional benefits to the Magus. Roaming is much better with insta-summon. Stopping chokepoint pushes is much better. As a magus have you tried to fight a WH with the insta-summon pet and explosive/KD power? Knocking the WH down for 3 seconds is enough time to stack the dots, push him back, and hit Indigo Fire and finish the job.

I agree, Mist is junk. Which is why I cringe when I see people using it. Firestorm crits, and is much better because of that and the snare component.

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Orontes
Posts: 198

Re: Mist/Napalm

Post#32 » Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:50 pm

Kobra wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:00 pm
Crumbs wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:36 pm
engis napalm still doesnt gain damage bonus from turret mechanic
If true, then it probably stands to reason why crit was left off Mist and if the damage logs are parsed, they're probably fairly equal at this point - I'd guess...

Also, people stating you need a tactic to properly manage a pet acting as if this is a big handicap are neglecting the fact that the pet can be utilized as a CC mechanism with that tactic in place. Choke point holds, keep door push holds, etc. Drop pet, decay it, AOE dmg+3 second KD, resummon pet instantly and build your stacks. Seems like a legitimate use of a tactic to me other than simply using it to insta-summon pets that are easily killed.

While I agree - having the pet not have more HP/Armor/Resists (and AOE immunity) like the WL is a nuisance, and requires excessive monitoring/management, I would also counter that the insta-summon negates that, and provides additional benefits to the Magus. Roaming is much better with insta-summon. Stopping chokepoint pushes is much better. As a magus have you tried to fight a WH with the insta-summon pet and explosive/KD power? Knocking the WH down for 3 seconds is enough time to stack the dots, push him back, and hit Indigo Fire and finish the job.

I agree, Mist is junk. Which is why I cringe when I see people using it. Firestorm crits, and is much better because of that and the snare component.

Given the Powers stated they forgot to add back in crit., but it has been demonstrated Napalm did have crit. restored, it's unlikely there was any grand plan for the current disjointedness between Napalm and Mist.

Per pet weakness and constant re-summoning: One shouldn't be forced to use a tactic slot with instant summon just to try and use the class mechanic, irrespective of any other possible benefit one may conceive from said same tactic. There should be some flexibility in how one plays the class.

As it stands:

1) Mist is now crap because it cannot critical

2) Pets are far far too weak. They need to be made much tougher, subject to grp. heals, or immune to AOE damage.

Kobra
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Posts: 126

Re: Mist/Napalm

Post#33 » Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:11 pm

Orontes wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:50 pm
Given the Powers stated they forgot to add back in crit., but it has been demonstrated Napalm did have crit. restored, it's unlikely there was any grand plan for the current disjointedness between Napalm and Mist.

The thing is, it was stated that the Magus stats directly impact Mist, while Engi stats don't impact Napalm. You want more damage/more effective Mist, then MP/INT will be your ticket, but crit won't change it. It's a trade off I guess, but I would bet the numbers are pretty similar when parsed between Mist and Napalm on Engi/Magus with identical main stats, but rise on a magus with higher MP/INT. I guess we won't know until someone parses both out.
Per pet weakness and constant re-summoning: One shouldn't be forced to use a tactic slot with instant summon just to try and use the class mechanic, irrespective of any other possible benefit one may conceive from said same tactic. There should be some flexibility in how one plays the class.
You aren't FORCED to do it. Why do you think that tactic is there? Window dressing? Just another junk tactic to ignore? Or is it there because it was found to be a viable tactic to instantly summon pets, decay them for AOE dmg and CC, and to speed up your incremental ticks in a pinch? I mean you don't really have to use it. You can LOS your pet at sieges. You can keep distance from the lower range AOE's, etc.. Would a buff to reduce AOE dmg they take be acceptable and possibly warranted? I think it would be to at least give people that don't want instant-summon a way to still use the pet in lord rooms and areas with high AOE dmg.
As it stands:

1) Mist is now crap because it cannot critical

2) Pets are far far too weak. They need to be made much tougher, subject to grp. heals, or immune to AOE damage.
Mist has sort of always been crap. I'm unsure why the vast majority of Magus I run into are using it. I get it, the idea is to drop mist, then drop firestorm and watch the numbers fly. But they are both situation and not really worthy to build a magus around IMO. Also this sort of gimps you for roaming, solo roaming, 6 mans, and SC's.. Who's going to sit in mist out in a lake or in an SC? I sort of always felt mist was an adjunct to Firestorm and neither are meant to change battle outcomes.

But honestly - I've seen the insta-summon pet combined with Instability can actually change the flow of a fight. (RVR, SC or Roaming)

My 2C.

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Crumbs
Posts: 162

Re: Mist/Napalm

Post#34 » Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:25 am

pets still need to be made a lot tougher or only they need to be made so they only take like 50% of the aoe damage, most of the time when im playing in organized wb vs wb my flame turret - the tankiest turret with the most wounds literally dies on immediate spawn before even the global cooldown and cant detonate when i need to most, and can cost an entire wipe.

Some engis without the gear for wounds to increase turret HP (yes thats what weve had to resort to) are forced to use reinforced casing and waste another invaluable tactic slot (that does nothing other than increase wounds for turrets, aka peanuts) just so they can blow up a **** turret when they need to, and even then they still fall over before the gcd is ready.

Like i dont understand what makes it so hard for devs to decide whether or not to increase its damage mitigation, like its confirmed 10000x by literally everyone on the server thats played the class that these **** things die uselessly in our mid range/close range specs over and over and over and over well before we can even make use of our damage bonus, and then they fall over in 3sec and we lose 10sec+ worth of our damage. Wtf is the point of a close range turret like the flame turret/blue horror that immediately crumples on close range engagement? **** backwards. I'm just begging for someone with power to recognize this and implement a solution or a test anytime soon, i will put up another proposal for this and word it properly and make it official.
Mekanik [engi] 40/85
[magus] 40/70

Kobra
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Posts: 126

Re: Mist/Napalm

Post#35 » Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:18 am

Either make them AOE hardened, or give them a longer range of effect for the buffs.

I can't deny that is really really important to have done now. Despite my other disagreements with this thread, that much we can agree on.

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Crumbs
Posts: 162

Re: Mist/Napalm

Post#36 » Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:00 am

Well my last city just now that we won with a quarter of a guild warband vs another semi organized/full 222 warband in city, in that instance destro had pretty low overall aoe dps though they were long fights.

So I developed a small little addon that tracks my flame turret deaths and it instantly died 94 times there. I never got further than x3 stacks, and this is the supposed close range spec for engi/magus. Like i said i think its very backwards and counterintuitive that the close range turret has 0 survivability and will die to just tank aoe in seconds, ofc it also died many times upon instant rebuild the second i needed it to knockdown the melee squigs and choppas to relieve pressure.

Like, do the math there, theres so much time and damage lost there, not to mention the AP, thats a 55x94 minus to my overall AP during the entire city, nobody understands just how much those **** rebuilds cost on engi because they dont play them in city or organized guild wbs because theyre engis and nobody wants them. 3-4 turret rebuilds and youre on the backfoot trying to recover AP to split between CCing on cooldown, attempting to stack/pump out max damage, and rebuilding 55AP turrets on cooldown, again, on cooldown.

A lot of times I would just sit there instant rebuilding turrets so I can at least I have a sliver of my mechanic to utilise and then having all of my damage stacks obliterated because of the stupid ruleset in the mechanic where the instant a turret dies i instantly lose 20% of my damage constantly and neverendingly resetting my stacks to 0. If i keep going i would just keep going around in circles, yeah maybe the gun turret and the bombardment dont need that much added surviveability because of how theyre supposed to be positioned. But the flame turret my god, this turret makes no sense for the aforementioned reasons
Mekanik [engi] 40/85
[magus] 40/70

Orontes
Posts: 198

Re: Mist/Napalm

Post#37 » Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:27 am

Kobra wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:11 pm
The thing is, it was stated that the Magus stats directly impact Mist, while Engi stats don't impact Napalm. You want more damage/more effective Mist, then MP/INT will be your ticket, but crit won't change it. It's a trade off I guess, but I would bet the numbers are pretty similar when parsed between Mist and Napalm on Engi/Magus with identical main stats, but rise on a magus with higher MP/INT. I guess we won't know until someone parses both out.
Mist and Napalm are currently disjointed. This was not the case previously. Given the statements made by the Powers it is highly unlikely it was intended. Both Napalm and Mist should:

-get the full benefit of relevant player stats
-damage should increase per the pet tool tip
-be able to critical. (Doing some 300-ish mitigated damage per tick after 20 seconds is laughable. No 13 pt. ability should be such comic farce)

These asks are straight forward and rather obvious. They are further supported by the comments from the Powers that if they stick to their original impressions would/should have already been fixed. If they aren't fixed, Mist/Napalm will cease to be used by the majority of players and the Changing/Grenadier trees will have suffered a debilitating setback.

You aren't FORCED to do it. Why do you think that tactic is there? Window dressing? Just another junk tactic to ignore?



Given how weak pets are, yeah, one is basically forced to use the instant re-summon tactic, just to hope to get some benefit from the increased damage that is fundamental to the class mechanic.

Mist has sort of always been crap. I'm unsure why the vast majority of Magus I run into are using it. I get it, the idea is to drop mist, then drop firestorm and watch the numbers fly. But they are both situation and not really worthy to build a magus around IMO. Also this sort of gimps you for roaming, solo roaming, 6 mans, and SC's.. Who's going to sit in mist out in a lake or in an SC? I sort of always felt mist was an adjunct to Firestorm and neither are meant to change battle outcomes.

But honestly - I've seen the insta-summon pet combined with Instability can actually change the flow of a fight. (RVR, SC or Roaming)

My 2C.

Each Mastery should be a viable option for a class. Changing and Grenadier are seriously undercut if their premier ability in the line is rubbish. Use of insta-summon with Instability is an old and familiar formula that traces back to Live. It's value does not contradict the baseline point just stated.

Orontes
Posts: 198

Re: Mist/Napalm

Post#38 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:17 am

I've not seen any further comments from the Powers. I assume then the partially stated fix for the two classes will remain half done:

Engi. Napalm is able to crit.
Magus Mist is not able to crit.

I further assume the Powers have no intention of addressing the classes pets dying so so easily (despite the fact they are fundamental to the class mechanic). Why not allow pets to receive AOE heals, or make them immune to AOE damage, or bolster pet wounds?

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wargrimnir
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Re: Mist/Napalm

Post#39 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:09 pm

Orontes wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:17 am
I've not seen any further comments from the Powers. I assume then the partially stated fix for the two classes will remain half done:

Engi. Napalm is able to crit.
Magus Mist is not able to crit.

I further assume the Powers have no intention of addressing the classes pets dying so so easily (despite the fact they are fundamental to the class mechanic). Why not allow pets to receive AOE heals, or make them immune to AOE damage, or bolster pet wounds?
The intentions of the Powers are enigmatic. The coincidence of alignment with forum complaints is similar to alignment of planetary constellations, but less predictable.
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Orontes
Posts: 198

Re: Mist/Napalm

Post#40 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:43 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:09 pm
Orontes wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:17 am
I've not seen any further comments from the Powers. I assume then the partially stated fix for the two classes will remain half done:

Engi. Napalm is able to crit.
Magus Mist is not able to crit.

I further assume the Powers have no intention of addressing the classes pets dying so so easily (despite the fact they are fundamental to the class mechanic). Why not allow pets to receive AOE heals, or make them immune to AOE damage, or bolster pet wounds?
The intentions of the Powers are enigmatic. The coincidence of alignment with forum complaints is similar to alignment of planetary constellations, but less predictable.

It is indeed "a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma". I will sacrifice a chicken to the Powers in hopes to curry some favor for the beleaguered Magus' Mist inability to crit. and the two classes sad and sorry pets: destroyed if even stared at too intently. We wait on their pleasure and mercy. :)

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