Marauder 'Flames of Fate'

[Caduceus]

1) So we are back at "sw has ways to counter mara tools, but you want the "I win" button". 2) Also, you just admitted that mara pull doesn't works the way you said it works 2 posts ago. 3) Also, choppa has his own tools, starting with gtdc.

4) In other words, now you are trying to change it to choppa vs sw, while claiming that FoF is too powerful without having any actual arguments.

1) What are you even talking about? There is no 'I-win-button' for RDPS against Marauder nor am I asking for one. You're just raving, trying to dodge the point.

2) Yeah? Congratulations, I guess? It's irrelevant to the point I'm making, but if you need a moment to gloat over that fact then by all means, take it.

3) GtdC does not involve a 10 sec root.

4) No, you are obviously dodging the point and trying to avoid talking about FoF by strawmanning like a madlad.

If you think a 65ft ~1k dmg 10sec unbreakable root is balanced then you're simply wrong. I don't know what else to tell you.

[Foofmonger]

I'm ok with changing FOF if we can also get pulls fixed at the same time.

[anarchypark]

are you talking about 1on1 or grp play ?

1:1
you've hit mara from far until M1. let's say 70% hp. now mara used M1 got melee range. you M1 punt. let's say 50% hp when mara got melee range 2nd time.
you got disarm or stun. let's say 40% hp.
so final stage is 40% melee vs 8~90% range in melee fight.
all numbers are just example.

Somewhat accurate, however when in melee the ranged dps will have burned most of their CDs (like VotN) and AP. Also, this is when the Mara can start CCing/debuffing and selfhealing. Even when the mdps is quite damaged when the melee starts, there's no way a ranged dps will be able to outburst them in this situation. After the first 3 sec CC ranged dps will be at 50% as well, and the fight is over fast.

Fights also rarely start at max range (unless rdps sets up the fight perfectly), and usually there is some LoSing by the mdps which can greatly reduce the range at which the engagement starts.

melee should die against rdps in 1:1 ?
or catching target at 10% is right balance ?
what do you think designed number should be ?

[saupreusse]

are you talking about 1on1 or grp play ?

1:1
you've hit mara from far until M1. let's say 70% hp. now mara used M1 got melee range. you M1 punt. let's say 50% hp when mara got melee range 2nd time.
you got disarm or stun. let's say 40% hp.
so final stage is 40% melee vs 8~90% range in melee fight.
all numbers are just example.

Somewhat accurate, however when in melee the ranged dps will have burned most of their CDs (like VotN) and AP. Also, this is when the Mara can start CCing/debuffing and selfhealing. Even when the mdps is quite damaged when the melee starts, there's no way a ranged dps will be able to outburst them in this situation. After the first 3 sec CC ranged dps will be at 50% as well, and the fight is over fast.

Fights also rarely start at max range (unless rdps sets up the fight perfectly), and usually there is some LoSing by the mdps which can greatly reduce the range at which the engagement starts.

melee should die against rdps in 1:1 ?
or catching target at 10% is right balance ?
what do you think designed number should be ?

Yall need to drop your 1 on 1 focus or this wont turn into anything useful.

[Hugatsaga]

To me OP sounds like a professional whiner more than anything. His initial position was that only mara morale root was a problem while forgot to mention WL, who pretty much hard counters every rdps on destro side. Not only they have same m1 but have pounce and working pull as well.

I dont see this as a huge issue. Literally every class in the game has way to get out of mara/wl morale root. Its morale so not breaking on dmg is justified imo. Since wl/mara root is m1 and FM is m2 theres small window where wl/mara can abuse targets lack of morale (assuming both started combat at the same time and both gain morale at same rate etc etc). Because of that you can make a case that those roots should be in m2 slot. Thats fine by me. But if WL/mara catches you with root and you have FM/snare break on cooldown, imo its fair that they get the kill that might follow.

[zumos2]

Please stop making "balance" proposals based on 1 v 1. In a group fight you can choose to keep 100 ft distance until you reach M2 so you have the safety of a root break. If you get rooted before you hit M2 you just switch to assault stance and you can easily tank the damage for a couple of seconds (remember they still have to run towards you when they press root). And there are a ton more plays to counter the root. Tanks can root/knockback/knockdown enemy dps whenever they press morale root and they might not even reach you at all.

[Caduceus]

To me OP sounds like a professional whiner more than anything. His initial position was that only mara morale root was a problem while forgot to mention WL, who pretty much hard counters every rdps on destro side. Not only they have same m1 but have pounce and working pull as well.

What a disgusting attempt at mud-throwing. Argue the point or see yourself out.

I dont see this as a huge issue. Literally every class in the game has way to get out of mara/wl morale root. Its morale so not breaking on dmg is justified imo. Since wl/mara root is m1 and FM is m2 theres small window where wl/mara can abuse targets lack of morale (assuming both started combat at the same time and both gain morale at same rate etc etc). Because of that you can make a case that those roots should be in m2 slot. Thats fine by me. But if WL/mara catches you with root and you have FM/snare break on cooldown, imo its fair that they get the kill that might follow.

Moving FoF and Ensnare to M2 would be a satisfactory solution.

[Caduceus]

1) Please stop making "balance" proposals based on 1 v 1. 2) In a group fight you can choose to keep 100 ft distance until you reach M2 so you have the safety of a root break. 3) If you get rooted before you hit M2 you just switch to assault stance and you can easily tank the damage for a couple of seconds (remember they still have to run towards you when they press root). And there are a ton more plays to counter the root. Tanks can root/knockback/knockdown enemy dps whenever they press morale root and they might not even reach you at all.

1) FoF is almost exclusively used in solo fights, therefore I see no issue in discussing it in the context in which it is used. People are throwing the ol' "but the game is not balanced around 1v1", but it's a terrible excuse to justify the existence over something that isn't even used in group fights. FoF/Ensnare exist for 1v1, and in that context it is way too powerful.

2) It is rarely, if ever, used in group fights, thus this isn't really part of the problem.

3) It takes 3 seconds to travel 60ft to get into melee range. That leaves 7 seconds of wailing away at my squishy rdps behind. Their knockdown adds another 2 seconds of wailing away to that. Then comes the snare, which adds another 5 seconds, minimum, until the rdps can start trying to create space.

It is obviously way too powerful in a 1v1 context, and it should be addressed. Switching it to M2 would solve the issue and seems like a satisfactory solution to me.

[Zxul]

1) So we are back at "sw has ways to counter mara tools, but you want the "I win" button". 2) Also, you just admitted that mara pull doesn't works the way you said it works 2 posts ago. 3) Also, choppa has his own tools, starting with gtdc.

4) In other words, now you are trying to change it to choppa vs sw, while claiming that FoF is too powerful without having any actual arguments.

1) What are you even talking about? There is no 'I-win-button' for RDPS against Marauder nor am I asking for one. You're just raving, trying to dodge the point.

Asking melee to not have the tools to catch ranged is asking for "I win" button. And as for dodging the point, so far you have been wrong on every argument which you posted, and reacted to it with "whaa whaa I don't care FoF is overpowered nerf!".

2) Yeah? Congratulations, I guess? It's irrelevant to the point I'm making, but if you need a moment to gloat over that fact then by all means, take it.

Its relevant since you proved you don't even know how the class which you are posting about works. Despite it being specifically posted in patch notes.

3) GtdC does not involve a 10 sec root.

It however involves pull combined with a self run speed buff, which doesn't requires having a morale. Like I said, each class its own tools.

4) No, you are obviously dodging the point and trying to avoid talking about FoF by strawmanning like a madlad.

If you think a 65ft ~1k dmg 10sec unbreakable root is balanced then you're simply wrong. I don't know what else to tell you.

I posted several times that FoF is fine- how is that for dodging? You replies to me and other posters here were copy paste of "whaa whaa If you think a 65ft ~1k dmg 10sec unbreakable root is balanced then you're simply wrong whaa whaa".

[sogeou]

1) So we are back at "sw has ways to counter mara tools, but you want the "I win" button". 2) Also, you just admitted that mara pull doesn't works the way you said it works 2 posts ago. 3) Also, choppa has his own tools, starting with gtdc.

4) In other words, now you are trying to change it to choppa vs sw, while claiming that FoF is too powerful without having any actual arguments.

1) What are you even talking about? There is no 'I-win-button' for RDPS against Marauder nor am I asking for one. You're just raving, trying to dodge the point.

Asking melee to not have the tools to catch ranged is asking for "I win" button. And as for dodging the point, so far you have been wrong on every argument which you posted, and reacted to it with "whaa whaa I don't care FoF is overpowered nerf!".

2) Yeah? Congratulations, I guess? It's irrelevant to the point I'm making, but if you need a moment to gloat over that fact then by all means, take it.

Its relevant since you proved you don't even know how the class which you are posting about works. Despite it being specifically posted in patch notes.

3) GtdC does not involve a 10 sec root.

It however involves pull combined with a self run speed buff, which doesn't requires having a morale. Like I said, each class its own tools.

4) No, you are obviously dodging the point and trying to avoid talking about FoF by strawmanning like a madlad.

If you think a 65ft ~1k dmg 10sec unbreakable root is balanced then you're simply wrong. I don't know what else to tell you.

I posted several times that FoF is fine- how is that for dodging? You replies to me and other posters here were copy paste of "whaa whaa If you think a 65ft ~1k dmg 10sec unbreakable root is balanced then you're simply wrong whaa whaa".

If they remove shaman / SH speed procs they could remove the M1. But, they won't so it will stay. Also, the move is balanced, you can remove it lots of ways. None of which I am going to say. But, BW's and other can remove it, as well as anyone. Just think outside the box.