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Marauder 'Flames of Fate'

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Zxul
Posts: 1359

Re: Marauder 'Flames of Fate'

Post#41 » Tue May 26, 2020 10:32 am

Caduceus wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 8:48 am
Zxul wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 8:16 am List of existing abilities kiters can use vs Flames of Fate:
1. Detaunt.
2. Absorb and heal pots.
3. Ranged snares- if mara blows Mutating Release just to get to rooted target, using 1-2 to survive allows to kill him after.

Last thing this server needs is going back to live, where half destro classes were free renown for a kiting sw.
These offer no satisfactory solution, and this suggestion seems to be based on a misunderstanding of the problem.

Even if the rdps manages to survive through the 10 sec root using detaunt/pots, they will still have to deal with snares, pulls, sprints(and flee + AP pot), snarebreaks, etc. The problem is once a rdps has been caught by an mdps, it becomes nearly impossible to establish range again. Whether the rdps can succesfully kite or the mdps can get a snare off is the fundamental mechanic between the mdps vs rdps fight. Flames of Fate/Ensnare just gives it to the mdps for free, and that is clearly imbalanced.
Lets see now. Whirling Pen gets you out of melee range, and puts same 40% snare on mara as mara got on you, except that mara snare is melee range so he can't renew it. Pull is 2 sec cast, and can be disrupted. Sprint +AP pot is something sw can use as well (and good sws used on live). Snarebreak is wasted getting to you.

So we are back to mara root being very survivable, and you wanting maras to be a free kill for kiters.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

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emiliorv
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Re: Marauder 'Flames of Fate'

Post#42 » Tue May 26, 2020 10:53 am

SWs dont have a M1 to punt players away?

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Nekkma
Posts: 722

Re: Marauder 'Flames of Fate'

Post#43 » Tue May 26, 2020 11:10 am

Caduceus wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 9:24 am
Flames of Fate/Ensnare makes no sense from whatever perspective you look at it.

If you're going by the argument that the game is balanced around group-play: Flames of Fate/Ensnare is almost never used in this context, because generally there are other classes around with ranged snares. Moreover, why should, in a group context, a mdps be able to usurp the role of other classes by giving them ranged snares? That's the territory of other classes and it's what creates synergy between the classes and what makes group play interesting. If Mara is getting the ranged snare role, then its damage output should also be nerfed accordingly so it's on par with ranged SH/SW. If the game is entirely based on group play, there's no reason this ability should exist in the first place.

More likely, the ability was designed with 1v1/small-scale in mind, and it is obviously too powerful against certain classes. Either give those classes a way to react or nerf/change the ability.
Of course it is used in a group setting, it's a great tool to catch a kiting healer or rdps to focus down. Your argument is that it is an "I win" button, which is completely false in a group setting. It is easily counterable with guard, challenge, detaunt, healing, cc etc, which in turn, needs to be countered by punting guarding tank away, silencing healer, applying proper debuffs etc.

Furthermore, roles are not that rigid in this game. With your argument we should remove pounce, or adjust wl damage to range SW/SH as per your suggestion, from WL as that "ursurps" the role of rdps, complete nonsense. Also, plenty of rdps have melee ranged snares and roots, better remove those as well since melee snares in melee and range snares at range according to you, right?
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Caduceus
Posts: 653

Re: Marauder 'Flames of Fate'

Post#44 » Tue May 26, 2020 11:44 am

wachlarz wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 9:55 am
So can U write this many tools ? Not 1 or 2 many :P
Choppa:
- Charge!
- Shrug It Off
- Git To Da Choppa
- Confusing Movements
- Wot's Da Rush? (30ft snare)
- Flee + AP pot
- Using LoS
- Using mount to close distance

Marauder:
- Charge!
- Mutating Release
- Terrible Embrace
- Confusing Movements
- Flames of Fate
- Flee + AP pot
- Using LoS
- Using mount to close distance
Last edited by Caduceus on Tue May 26, 2020 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
"I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving." - Colonel Walter E. Kurtz

Caduceus
Posts: 653

Re: Marauder 'Flames of Fate'

Post#45 » Tue May 26, 2020 11:47 am

Zxul wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 10:32 am
Lets see now. Whirling Pen gets you out of melee range, and puts same 40% snare on mara as mara got on you, except that mara snare is melee range so he can't renew it. Pull is 2 sec cast, and can be disrupted. Sprint +AP pot is something sw can use as well (and good sws used on live). Snarebreak is wasted getting to you.

So we are back to mara root being very survivable, and you wanting maras to be a free kill for kiters.
Whirling Pen will rarely get you out of melee range, since the snare will be applied with a delay and the self-punt is extremely unreliable. 2 sec cast time obviously is no argument; SW cannot interrupt spells except with ranged knockdown/silence which are on a cooldown and cause immunity.

So nothing that justifies 65ft range 10sec champion's challenge that does a nuke has been provided.
"I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving." - Colonel Walter E. Kurtz

Caduceus
Posts: 653

Re: Marauder 'Flames of Fate'

Post#46 » Tue May 26, 2020 11:54 am

Nekkma wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 11:10 am
1) Of course it is used in a group setting, it's a great tool to catch a kiting healer or rdps to focus down. 2) Your argument is that it is an "I win" button, which is completely false in a group setting. It is easily counterable with guard, challenge, detaunt, healing, cc etc, which in turn, needs to be countered by punting guarding tank away, silencing healer, applying proper debuffs etc.

3) Furthermore, roles are not that rigid in this game. With your argument we should remove pounce, or adjust wl damage to range SW/SH as per your suggestion, from WL as that "ursurps" the role of rdps, complete nonsense. Also, plenty of rdps have melee ranged snares and roots, better remove those as well since melee snares in melee and range snares at range according to you, right?
1) It really isn't. At least, I rarely see it used and when I discussed this issue with my mates most of them didn't even know Flames of Fate existed. (anecdotal evidence, but still)
There's an obvious reason for it too; Confusing Movements is by far superior for mdps in group play, because it helps them survive being focused. Moreover, ranged snaring isn't their primary role, nor should it be, and it is usually left to specialized classes.

2) Not talking about a group setting in this context.

3) Not close to a justification for why a melee class should have a 65ft 10 sec champion's challenge that also nukes for ~1k.
"I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving." - Colonel Walter E. Kurtz

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Nekkma
Posts: 722

Re: Marauder 'Flames of Fate'

Post#47 » Tue May 26, 2020 12:06 pm

1. A guarded mara do not need confusing movements in my opinion.

2. I know. I was just trying to be helpful and point out that 1vs1 balanced has many times been declared invalid as an argument by the devs/staff. If you approach this from a 1vs1 issue, I predict you are fighting a lost cause. I still agree that it is slightly to strong but not from the perspective of 1vs1

3. I extended your argument that melee should not have ranged snares to include wl which in effect can pounce and snare, i.e. "ranged snare", and then concluded that, if so, ranged should not have melee cc , to show that that reasoning has no bearing on how the game is designed. The argument that the ability does not fit a mdps just do not hold in this game.
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saupreusse
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Re: Marauder 'Flames of Fate'

Post#48 » Tue May 26, 2020 12:35 pm

Arbich wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 10:05 am
adamthelc wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 3:32 am I dont agree that its obvious it needs to be fixed. Its an anti kiting tool, that doesn't seem that crazy.

The problem with this game is that it wasn't originally designed with so much anti kiting tools in mind. Rdps don't really have kits to fight it effectively. Too many gap closers, not enough gap makers.

They should really consider adding stuff like blinks or teleports on rdps. I am not a huge fan of that, since it's very different than the original game. But if you are going to tinker with the original game you have to be prepared to fix the issues your tinkering causes.

So by itself I dont think these M1 are a huge problem, but they are a part of a greater problem. Which is out of date kiting tools vs more up to date gap closers/antikiting tools.
This!
There were just too many bad balance decisions in the past. Some of them mind-boggling.
flames of fate is a very strong m1, yes. But you shouldnt look at individual skills and instead always should have the greater picture in mind.

I don´t think putting flames of fate at m2 instead of m1 is a huge nerf. At least you could have confusing movements and range root this way.
I would even say that flames of fate neccessitates any change at all at the moment. At first some other class changes (and gear designs) should be reevaluated.
To be fair every 10 sec hard cc is a huge problem in any game and the guys designing this skill prolly were high on acid that day. But im also in favor of moving it to m2. :^)
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Zxul
Posts: 1359

Re: Marauder 'Flames of Fate'

Post#49 » Tue May 26, 2020 12:36 pm

Caduceus wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 11:47 am
Zxul wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 10:32 am
Lets see now. Whirling Pen gets you out of melee range, and puts same 40% snare on mara as mara got on you, except that mara snare is melee range so he can't renew it. Pull is 2 sec cast, and can be disrupted. Sprint +AP pot is something sw can use as well (and good sws used on live). Snarebreak is wasted getting to you.

So we are back to mara root being very survivable, and you wanting maras to be a free kill for kiters.
Whirling Pen will rarely get you out of melee range, since the snare will be applied with a delay and the self-punt is extremely unreliable.
If there is a bug with Whirling Pen's self punt, feel free to open ticket at bugtracker.
Caduceus wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 11:47 am2 sec cast time obviously is no argument; SW cannot interrupt spells except with ranged knockdown/silence which are on a cooldown and cause immunity.
2 sec cast time is an argument since if sw gets out of range during those 2 sec, the pull fails. And as for cooldown/immunity, pull has a cooldown of 30 sec as well.
Caduceus wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 11:47 amSo nothing that justifies 65ft range 10sec champion's challenge that does a nuke has been provided.
Actually it was, you just chose to ignore it since you want the "I win" button vs melee.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

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anarchypark
Posts: 2073

Re: Marauder 'Flames of Fate'

Post#50 » Tue May 26, 2020 12:50 pm

are you talking about 1on1 or grp play ?

1:1
you've hit mara from far until M1. let's say 70% hp. now mara used M1 got melee range. you M1 punt. let's say 50% hp when mara got melee range 2nd time.
you got disarm or stun. let's say 40% hp.
so final stage is 40% melee vs 8~90% range in melee fight.
all numbers are just example.

now BW have burst. SW have armor buff.
engie have turret stack.
many other variables will effect numbers.

see how range vs melee work?
range got upper hand at first, later melee got it, final round is low hp death match.
in theory.

seems you assumed 1:1 start at melee range.

grp
guard heal.

mass orvr
everything can be happen. though I think melee are better at open field, range at keep. if tanks make enough wall...

I think this m1 is 1:1 skill, little use among entire scales.
and in 1:1 mara's chance is low without it.
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